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Sanokal
7th August 2016, 07:33 AM
TCG Banlist Discussion:

NOTE: These are not necessarily my opinions; the options on this list are those that have been widely talked about and in addition, enforced in the OCG. In addition, these are cards moving up on the banlist, because other than the babies coming back when the daddies were banned, no-one knows what the hell Konami will do. It's merely something that I haven't seen as much discussion as I'd like aside from Yugitubers.

Banned:

* Performapal Monkeyboard: Banned in the OCG; it is still highly searchable by other cards and functions as a 1-card scale. While this would have been less of a problem before the release of the Scale 8 "Performapal Odd-Eyes Unicorn", it now has four targets as opposed to one less-than desirable target. I personally don't want it to be banned for the sake of Performapals by themselves, but if it has to happen, it has to happen.

* Kozmo Tincan: Suggested by some to prevent Kozmo recovery and give them less access to the Graveyard, but others argue that simply hitting Dark Destroyer, the general end result, will be enough.

* Card of Demise: Gives quite a lot of advantage for costs that are deceptively simple to play around. Could possibly be Limited instead.

* Gem-Knight Seraphinite or Brilliant Fusion: Suggested by people paranoid of the "Brilliant Fusion" engine; "Seraphinite" serves as a means to mill LIGHT monsters and provides an extra Normal Summon, which can be absolutely crucial. I really don't want Gem-Knights to get hit though.

* Majespecter Unicorn - Kirin: Has also been suggested to be Limited (my personal thoughts as well, it's only up this high due to highest mention); "Kirin" is extremely potent and difficult to counter removal; being the worst parts of "Kozmo" starships and "Brionac". In addition, it can potentially dodge "Kaijus", and that's no small feat to claim.

* The Monarch's Stormforth: I'm not sure if this would even get touched, but it is an undeniably powerful card. It's removal, summon support, it's almost always available, and it's searchable.

* Elder Entity Norden: Is it really so powerful? I'm not sure that it needs a ban; it doesn't do a lot here. Regardless, it's still an easy Rank 4 that's almost always live. Banned in the OCG, though they do have "Super Polyermization" and we don't.

Limited:

* Kozmo Dark Destroyer: This is Kozmo's most potent beatstick, and one that is often very nastily looped via its own destruction effect. Kozmo starships have warped the metagame via their target immunity and launching effects; this would slightly neuter their power, while still leaving "Dark Eclipser" and "Dark Planet" for alternate options (which would be very nice to see).

* Dante, Traveller of the Burning Abyss: Limited in the OCG; "Burning Abyss" have been around for over two years. While previously neutered, the interactions with "The Phantom Knights" and the "Speedroid" engine have caused their power to rise again. Double Dante looping itself is still a problem as well.

* Pantheism of the Monarchs: Incredible consistency. Limited in the OCG. There is little more to say.

* Domain of the True Monarchs: It's an easy lockdown out of the Extra Deck, which no-one likes. Granted, it's thought that by many that hitting both Pantheism and Stormforth will be enough and thus this will remain untouched, but this card is Limited in the OCG and Stormforth is not.

* Performapal Pendulum Sorcerer: Limited in the OCG, but unlikely given the presence as a promo in the Mega-tins. Gives excellent advantage, especially by searching "Skullcrobat Joker" and "Monkeyboard".

* Speedroid Terrortop: Many view this as too powerful, given that it's a one-card Rank 3 without needing to use a Normal Summon. I personally don't think (and hope that) it won't get hit, given how crucial it is for Speedroids even if "Scratching" is released.

* Pendulum Call: I don't think that this needs it, but it's certainly a possibility with it Limited in the OCG and it is still rather powerful. However, "Cosmic Cyclone" has been receiving a lot of hype over here, so it may not need the hit…and yet that may not save it.

* Cir and/or Scarm, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss: Scarm is Limited in the OCG and Cir is Semi-Limited over here. Both of them give more chances to use the many excellent effects in the Burning Abyss theme, and Scarm can also search out Tour Guide.

Semi-Limited:

* Solemn Strike: Keep in mind that this is a card that many WANT Limited, but no-one thinks that it will be, what with a reprint on the way in the Mega-Tins (heck, it may even stay untouched). It's very powerful, and very versatile, and usually always active.

* Kozmotown: It's been suggested that this go to Limited, in order to prevent it from searching another copy of itself, but this has been a popular opinion. Regardless, it's good recovery and at current it's difficult to stop it due to being able to search out the other copies in the time it takes to win.

So yeah. Discuss. And feel free to discuss returns as well, I just hate trying to predict those given the usual approach we get to 'em.

Pendulum
10th August 2016, 01:03 AM
Haven't been keeping up with the game, but I mostly agree with these changes. Especially the Forbidden ones.
Ban or, at least, limit "Solemn Strike", please. I hate cards that negate Summons.

GG ELDIUS
15th August 2016, 08:00 AM
This is what I would like to see:

Forbidden:
Card of Demise (Deserves it)
Gem-Knight Seraphinite (This is the problem, not Brilliant Fusion)
Majespecter Unicorn - Kirin (This card never should have been made)
Performapal Monkeyboard (A little overdue)

Limited:
Cir, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss (Has a good chance of being Scarm instead, but I feel this is the bigger problem)
Dante, Traveler of the Burning Abyss (Makes the engine splashable, needs to be limited)
Emergency Teleport (Limited in OCG for good reason)
Instant Fusion (This is the problem, and at 1, it's fine)
Interrupted Kaiju Slumber (This card is kind of ridiculous, and makes Kaiju a splashable engine instead of just side tech)
Pantheism of the Monarchs (Self explanatory)
Performapal Pendulum Sorcerer (Self explanatory)
Kozmotown (This would affect the consistency a bit)
Kozmo Dark Destroyer (Desperately needs to be limited)
The Monarchs Stormforth (Deserves it, but not sure if this will actually happen)
The Prime Monarch (This card is the reason why monarch mirror matches drag out tournaments)

Semi-Limited:
Book of Moon (I see no reason why this can't go to 2 right now)
Solemn Strike (If it gets touched at all, I can see it being semi-limited, or limited)

Unlimited:
Charge of the Light Brigade (Will do nothing, except maybe throw a bone to Infernoids after losing 2 Reasoning, and LS of course)
Dragon Ravine (It's at 2 and doing nothing, might as well)
Thousand-Eyes Restrict (With Instant at 1, this is fine)

If any cards were to come off the list, I could see Sangan (errata), CED-EotE (errata), Zenmaity (does nothing at one), and Tribe Infecting Virus (no longer a huge issue).

Sanokal
15th August 2016, 09:01 AM
Prime's a good pick actually; if it drags out tournaments then it's certainly a chance. I didn't know about that, nice spot.

King
15th August 2016, 04:43 PM
Changes i expect

To 0
Card of Demise: Exploited beyond expectations. Its basicaly a "free" Draw 3

Kozmotown: Easy and Powerful Hand Setup. Kozmos don't know what is bricking, and recovering your banished ships for abusing their effects looks unfair.

Performapal Pendulum Sorcerer: Search 2 for Popping 2 cards that you would probaly re-use again, even though i feel he will become at least Limited

Performapal Mokeyboard: I thnk its fine at 1. Yeah, it is a 1 card scale setup that does this by searching.

To 1

Kozmo Tincan: Add and fills the Graveyard for CotH and shit. Gives even more consistency to Kozmo (like they were lacking)

Kozmo Dark Destroyer: It appears already fucking you by destroying 1 Monster you control, and this, most of the times will happen during your turn, so, it always slown down your plays, by having imunity to Target, its hard to find a out to this card. If you manage to Destroy this card, it simply floats making your efforts a bit in vain. I forgot to mention that this cards has 3000 ATK and its always summoned with ease. For me Dark Destroyer needs to be banned or banished from reality.

Pantheism of Monarchs: I cannot picture Monarchs taking strong hits(besides this and stormforth), they are kinda Darkworlds 2.0. If somehow Monarchs stops being Meta its probaly because their draw and tribute engine became shit. The only reason i want Monarchs to keep in Meta its because they are cheap.

Archsorcerer
17th August 2016, 03:05 AM
Concerning the OCG banlist, and next year on the TCG, do you think Bahamut Shark could find itself on the Banlist?

Some decks use it to summon Treatoads.

Dread Kaiser
17th August 2016, 03:48 AM
Concerning the OCG banlist, and next year on the TCG, do you think Bahamut Shark could find itself on the Banlist?

Some decks use it to summon Treatoads.

ooooooor they could just hit Treatoads

don't hit something with legit use when what it summons is clearly the issue

Archsorcerer
25th August 2016, 01:23 AM
From the main page


https://ygorganization.com/tcg-monkey-is-kill/

NEWLY FORBIDDEN
Performapal Monkeyboard
Kaiser Colosseum

NEWLY LIMITED
Cir, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss
Ehther the Heavenly Monarch
Kozmo Dark Destroyer
Majespecter Unicorn – Kirin
Beatrice, Lady of the Eternal
Emergency Teleport
Pantheism of the Monarchs
Pendulum Call
The Monarchs Stormforth

NEWLY SEMI-LIMITED
Maxx “C”
Thunder King Rai-Oh
Wind-Up Magician

NEWLY UNLIMITED
Thousand-Eyes Restrict
Allure of Darkness
Gold Sarcophagus

Sarcophagus at 3! Shiranui can (ab)use that. :P

Yuuri
25th August 2016, 01:26 AM
From the main page



Sarcophagus at 3! Shiranui can (ab)use that. :P


I saw this list, but I didn't know where to post it. Oh well.

Looks like everything got hit to an extent. Perhaps it's the rise of a new meta? Also, someone care to enlighten me as to why Kaiser Colosseum is now Forbidden?

Erickdsl
25th August 2016, 01:34 AM
I saw this list, but I didn't know where to post it. Oh well.

Looks like everything got hit to an extent. Perhaps it's the rise of a new meta? Also, someone care to enlighten me as to why Kaiser Colosseum is now Forbidden?

It says on the website that colosseum was limited, which isnt true, so it might be a mistake, perhaps.

Yuuri
25th August 2016, 01:37 AM
It says on the website that colosseum was limited, which isnt true, so it might be a mistake, perhaps.

Even if it were limited, what is the cause of doing that? What was so bad about it that warranted a limit/ban? As far as I know, it had no place in any of the meta decks.

...Unless it was used in Monarchs, which I can see actually happening.

Erickdsl
25th August 2016, 01:43 AM
Even if it were limited, what is the cause of doing that? What was so bad about it that warranted a limit/ban? As far as I know, it had no place in any of the meta decks.

...Unless it was used in Monarchs, which I can see actually happening.

That's what i'm saying, it wasnt limited, but the website says it was, so maybe it's another card that was limited and now is supposed to be forbidden. And the kaiser colosseum was the wrong one, i think, i mean, it doesnt make any sense for this card to get banned, it wasnt doing anything for the meta.

Yuuri
25th August 2016, 01:49 AM
That's what i'm saying, it wasnt limited, but the website says it was, so maybe it's another card that was limited and now is supposed to be forbidden. And the kaiser colosseum was the wrong one, i think, i mean, it doesnt make any sense for this card to get banned, it wasnt doing anything for the meta.

Well, there is always the case in which it could be easily abused in up-coming decks. Or perhaps they simply considered it to be more powerful than Vanity's Emptiness, which — knowing Konami — is exactly what they did. Either way, it's a stupid reason, especially when the card has fallen off the face of the Earth since the Bujin faded into obscurity.

King
25th August 2016, 01:51 AM
Now just need to wait till October, then Full force with ABC. The path is free for the reign.

Jakinus
25th August 2016, 01:55 AM
Maybe they banned Kaiser Colosseum to bring back Thunder King Rai-Oh to two. I suposse that a board with both of them is kinda of hard to break to not-really-strong deck but other than that...

I'm quite satisfied with this list, it doesn't make my Dracopals unplayable, just not as powerful. Monarchs were the bitch of this list, Kozmo didn't go untouched, PK Fire, although still really playable, 1 Cir and 1 Beatrice is a decent if not good hit. Pendulum Magicians are the ones really destroyed right now.

Sanokal
25th August 2016, 02:05 AM
Right, the aftermath:
Newly Forbidden:
*Performapal Monkeyboard. A little shame, but necessary and expected.

*Kaiser Colosseum: I'm actually okay with this. A ban might have been kinda extreme, but let's face it - the card is a gigantic pain in the ass.

Newly Limited:
*Cir, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss: An expected hit. Fine with this.

*Ehther the Heavenly Monarch: I'm not going to lie, when I watched a reaction video I thought this was the Empowered Dragon for a second. Regardless, it's still a clean hit even if I didn't expect it.

*Kozmo Dark Destroyer: A clean hit that everyone expected. Aside from Emergency Teleport, Kozmo haven't suffered as much as we thought, which is sorta nice I suppose. Will we start seeing Dark Eclipser?

*Majespecter Unicorn Kirin: Praise out lord and svaiour that this prick got hit. It is a pain in the ass to deal with, and literally every Pendulum deck will try and run it.

*Dante, Traveller of the - wait, what? - Beatrice, Lady of the Eternal: It's Beatrice and NOT Dante? Dammit, Konami, kill them already! Burning Abyss might be dead as a whole, but Phantom Kinghts Fire is still viable!

*Emergency Teleport: A surprise Kozmo hit...sucks for Ritual Beasts and Super Quants thought. Which is probably why it was hit again in the first place. Super Hippo Carnival is now the alternative.

*Pantheism of the Monarchs: Do we even need to discuss how dumb this card is?

*Pendulum Call: OCG mimicry. To be fair, it sets up your scales and protects the damn things, but still...

*The Monarchs Stormforth: Instead of Domain - looks like people were right about this one. Yeah, I'm fine with this, though since I'm a Kaiju player I'm also a hypocrite.

Newly Semi-Limited:
*Maxx C: This makes more sense than you'd think. Seriously, how many decks run this card? Basically all of them. Takes a big dump on diversity. This doesn't kill the card and frees up a little space in the deck for other things.

*Thunder King Rai-Oh: Yay! I can use my second one if need be!

*Wind-Up Magician: Random, but fine. Wind-Ups don't do a lot.

Newly Unlimited
*Thousand-Eyes Restrict: Even at one, hasn't done a lot. Fine with this.

*Allure of Darkness: Pleasantly surprised. This could actually boost PK Fire a wee bit...

*Gold Sarcophagus: Move out of the way, @DreadKaiser is here to celebrate.

Overall a fairly solid list. Kozmo took fewer hits than expected, so it seems that they want to be around for longer like Burning Abyss. Monarchs are dealt with, thank Christ. Unfortunately, PK Fire haven't been quite killed, not sure now well they'll do...double or even triple Dante are still a thing for first turn Utopic Future. Brilliant Engine wasn't hit, excellent! Strike, as expected, didn't suffer. Pendulum Sorcerer is still around, that's a surprise. Card of Demise too, wow, and here we thought it was goneburgers. And thank goodness that Terrortop didn't get hit...but Dante is still swimming around.

Jakinus
25th August 2016, 02:19 AM
Overall a fairly solid list. Kozmo took fewer hits than expected, so it seems that they want to be around for longer like Burning Abyss. Monarchs are dealt with, thank Christ. Unfortunately, PK Fire haven't been quite killed, not sure now well they'll do...double or even triple Dante are still a thing for first turn Utopic Future. Brilliant Engine wasn't hit, excellent! Strike, as expected, didn't suffer. Pendulum Sorcerer is still around, that's a surprise. Card of Demise too, wow, and here we thought it was goneburgers. And thank goodness that Terrortop didn't get hit...but Dante is still swimming around.

Don't forget our dear friend NORDEN is still in the game. #TreatoadHype

R3QU13M
25th August 2016, 02:36 AM
Kaiser's banned was unexpected, but understanding despite numerous backrow removal we have in today's game. Lowkey shot thrown at Bujins that we usually seen it played but it affected my irl Gladiator Beasts & Blue-Eyes decks unfortunately. Time to find a replacement and I'm glad Rai-Oh is at 2 now, gonna impact these heavy search decks. Everything else can be considered deserving. Enough opinions here already mentined why.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 02:44 AM
NEWLY FORBIDDEN
Performapal Monkeyboard: Someone get me a "Stoopid Monkey" pic to use
Kaiser Colosseum: unexpected, but not unpleasant

NEWLY LIMITED
Cir, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss, HA
Ehther the Heavenly Monarch, HA
Kozmo Dark Destroyer: a hit done right, Good job Konami, knew you had it in you
Majespecter Unicorn – Kirin: bout time this little shit got hit. only way he coulda been designed worse is if he was Level 4
Beatrice, Lady of the Eternal: theres a "back to the Hell's Kitchen" joke in here somewhere....
Emergency Teleport: FUCK
Pantheism of the Monarchs: bout damn time
Pendulum Call: I'd say I'm dissappointed, but I'd need to be surprised in order for that to be true
The Monarchs Stormforth: and now I need to go realign my Planets, thanks Obama

NEWLY SEMI-LIMITED
Maxx “C”: Konami is officially the worst pest contorl ever
Thunder King Rai-Oh: k
Wind-Up Magician: well....I have a deck to dust off

NEWLY UNLIMITED
Thousand-Eyes Restrict: oh boy, who didn't see that coming
Allure of Darkness: Oh boy, who didn'- *rereads* *Spits out Soda* WUT!? WOOOT!
Gold Sarcophagus: PRAISE! ANOTHER VICTIM OF THE FA**OT DRAGONS FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Not Featured
Strike, woot, I still got more of these fuckers to sell
Fucking Dante, Burn already
Fucking Vanity's, DIE ALREADY
Fucking Stratos, I'm still at one and you are still dead.
Lavalval Chain, my Wicked Gods and many others just don't work without him....
Fucking Castel, Shut up I can dream
Fucking Norden, Hate you wtih a burning passion-
Super Poly, Because I want that back at 1 and Norden won't let that happen
Brio: BRIO COME HOME!
Card of Demise, Ehhh
Brilliant Engine, Hate this thing
Terrortop, thank fucking Numer-Ra.
Chaos Emperor Dragon. Again thank fucking Nume-Ra that we are not getting that abomination of an Errata
Falling Debris of the remains of the Kozmo Fleet, crashing at mach 15 onto the Munchkin Village and Kozmotown.

King
25th August 2016, 03:13 AM
not bad hits, but i expected a better list... Thank god the PK Engine is safe, BA needs to get the blame. I want to see PK RUM on play.

Sanokal
25th August 2016, 03:22 AM
So called that reaction Dreads.
Yes, Norden is still a thing. Dammit.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 03:25 AM
So called that reaction Dreads.
Yes, Norden is still a thing. Dammit.

made that reaction BECAUSE you called it actually

King
25th August 2016, 04:03 AM
Its out of topic but... Since Norden Survived and Treatoad is comming November, will a decent amount of people look foward to play HEROs ? How expemnsive would be a Secret Rare Treatoad ? Maybe i gottta sell a kid or 2 for it.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 04:24 AM
Its out of topic but... Since Norden Survived and Treatoad is comming November, will a decent amount of people look foward to play HEROs ? How expemnsive would be a Secret Rare Treatoad ? Maybe i gottta sell a kid or 2 for it.

if we could predict prices that far in advance, the Stock Market would have our heads

Assuming nothing changes and the toad is Secret (they have done wierd Rarities before), I would estimate in the samish range CDI and the like were in when they were released ($60) at the absolute most. At this point I would like to mention that I am absolutely horrible at pricing things
What could change? the TCG exclusive Archetypes could potentially get something so outrageous it invalidates the frog or something breaks the Darklords or DHEROS in Destiny soldiers so hard that no one wants to waste money on a frog that will be outclassed a month later

Sanokal
25th August 2016, 04:28 AM
made that reaction BECAUSE you called it actually

Hah! Regardless I figured that you'd be pleased.

Zarkiel
25th August 2016, 05:50 AM
So I bought a stratos couple of weeks ago thinking this would be the day. Guess I gotta wait for EVERY OTHER DECK to have a stratos before heroes can have one.

Seriously, freaking ancient gears get a stratos but heroes can't?!? Clearly Crowler has some stake in Konami or something.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 06:38 AM
So I bought a stratos couple of weeks ago thinking this would be the day. Guess I gotta wait for EVERY OTHER DECK to have a stratos before heroes can have one.

Seriously, freaking ancient gears get a stratos but heroes can't?!? Clearly Crowler has some stake in Konami or something.

ugh, have to explain this every damn time
major differences between Stratos and his "search on summon" counterparts

Stratos is not Hard OPT, has 5+ different cards that can search him, already has a fair replacement in the form of Shadowmist, has a backrow clearing effect as a bonus if the search was uneeded and most importantly of all, would require those searchers to go to 1 just to consider bringing him back. and that's the Dragon Ruler issue all over again, you don't hit balanced cards just to have a broken one around. Further, "Everything else has it, why can't I have the better version" is a horrible reason to bring him back

his knockoffs have OPT, are usually unsearchable outside of summoner monk, search about 5-15 cards (compared to stratos' 50ish, and with D-HERO's getting more support Stratos just got even more relevant targets than Bubbleman)

There is really no comparison, Stratos is bar none the single best searcher. its like comparing Jar of Greed to Pot of Greed. they do the same thing, one is MUCH better at its job.

Without an Errata, he is not coming back
Unless he is banned in the OCG, he will likely not get an Errata
Thus, in the TCG, he is dead and gone. Forever

to this day, I have yet to see a good reason for Stratos to come back other than HERO fanboys having a tantrum or poorly thought out "Deneb/whatever is at 3 so why isn't Stratos" arguments, Anyone actually have a valid reason why Stratos should be back?

Zarkiel
25th August 2016, 07:06 AM
ugh, have to explain this every damn time
major differences between Stratos and his "search on summon" counterparts

Stratos is not Hard OPT, has 5+ different cards that can search him, already has a fair replacement in the form of Shadowmist, has a backrow clearing effect as a bonus if the search was uneeded and most importantly of all, would require those searchers to go to 1 just to consider bringing him back. and that's the Dragon Ruler issue all over again, you don't hit balanced cards just to have a broken one around. Further, "Everything else has it, why can't I have the better version" is a horrible reason to bring him back

his knockoffs have OPT, are usually unsearchable outside of summoner monk, search about 5-15 cards (compared to stratos' 50ish, and with D-HERO's getting more support Stratos just got even more relevant targets than Bubbleman)

There is really no comparison, Stratos is bar none the single best searcher. its like comparing Jar of Greed to Pot of Greed. they do the same thing, one is MUCH better at its job.

Without an Errata, he is not coming back
Unless he is banned in the OCG, he will likely not get an Errata
Thus, in the TCG, he is dead and gone. Forever

to this day, I have yet to see a good reason for Stratos to come back other than HERO fanboys having a tantrum or poorly thought out "Deneb/whatever is at 3 so why isn't Stratos" arguments, Anyone actually have a valid reason why Stratos should be back?

Well, I prefer to play heroes mainly for fusion, so a wind target that isn't a vanilla with a poor attack stat would be nice.

But I don't see the problem of having 1 copy of it in a deck. Considering ocg has done it and its still not even in their meta, what would be the problem. Its nowhere near as broken as it used to be. So what if its a searcher that doubles as backrow hate, why does that even matter when you consider that its a monster effect. I don't think there's a deck out there that doesn't tech in at least 3 different monster negation cards.

And the D-hero support is barely support at all. D-heroes have even less searchers that elemental heroes do and can still barely function.

Sanokal
25th August 2016, 07:55 AM
Because it puts other cards on the banlist that otherwise shouldn't be. This is the crucial issue here. Though everyone agrees that the lack of another WIND HERO sucks.

pyrQ
25th August 2016, 08:40 AM
I'm ok with this list in general. Wish it had some more stuff on it though, but at least what it does have on it is fine. Basically, about things that aren't on the list:
-Norden: ban (he's ridic in every way, also Treatoad is coming)
-Strike: at least to 2, would prefer it at 1
-Vanity's: yeah that could just go
-Super Poly: would be nice at 1.. though with Norden not banned it's not a good idea
-Seraphinite: on one hand Seraphinite is stupid (thanks to Brilliant Fusion), on the other hand it helps some (of my) rogue/fun decks so I'm kinda torn
-Demise: could have limited/semi'd it, but I don't think it's that bad in the TCG since so many backrow cards are still limited (Bottomless, Torrential, Compulse, etc) compared to the OCG
-More Kozmo hits: pls

About Stratos, I'd much rather have both Shadow Mist and Stratos limited (like in the OCG) than how it is right now. Gives us a way to summon Kamikaze/Divine Wind and Blast without Form Change, an in-archetype Wind monster for Tornado and also helps D-HERO decks. Also, Avian sucks.

Pai de santo
25th August 2016, 10:33 AM
My Dante <3

Baroque
25th August 2016, 02:26 PM
Considering ocg has done it and its still not even in their meta, what would be the problem.

I hear very often that the OCG and TCG metas are in various ways different, so I tend to take statements like these with a rock of salt. Heck, comparing banlists between ours and theirs can in some ways rather keenly illustrate this fact (cases in point, Goyo and Raigeki are still banned across the pond, but folks over here find they're fine where they are now). Personally, while it is potentially 'nowhere near as broken as it used to be', I'd be tempted to assume that with how 'popular' (in a polarizing, love-it-or-hate-it kinda way) Stratos is, someone'd be bound to find a way to use him to grotesque effect in the TCG, if only because someone in the TCG might be more seriously tempted to try to do so.

Another argument 'for' that you gave for him is one that personally grinds my gears to no end -- the 'A Counter Exists, Therefore' argument; for the sake of not making a humongous brick, I've thrown it into a spoiler.
That a counter exists, and therefore a card has a shot at coming off the banlist (among other permutations) is a statement that you could apply to a lot of things in this game, and very seldom will you ever find it terribly applicable: Utopia the Lightning is going to become more widely available, and Kaiju are popular techs anyways, therefore Apoqliphort Towers can afford to come off the banlist; there's lots more avenues for summon hate nowadays, therefore Return from the Different Dimension could come off the list; we have Pendulums now and lots of searching, therefore Trap Dustshoot could also come off the banlist. These examples might leap headlong into reductio ad absurdum, but I'd like to think they rather nicely frame my point all the same: that a counter exists seldom has any relevance to why a card's ended up on the list nor why a card comes off the list, and even if it ever does it's certainly never that reason alone (let alone a major part of it).

Hell, we even saw a good example of this semi-sorta-recently with the testing-the-waters unbanning of Snatch Steal (a common enough practice that has seen a fair amount of other cards not just come off but stay off the banlist, like Dragon Ravine, Goyo, Raigeki, and now more recently Thousand-Eyes Restrict) . . . which rather thoroughly proved that no, no amount of negation, spot removal, targetproofing, or any other reason a fella could come up with could justify its continued presence in the modern metagame. It also showed the value of testing these sorts of claims, as its tentative unbanning at one yielded conclusive proof that yes, if you put it back in our hands we will manage to break it yet again. The meta does change, and cards will come and go from the banlist (even ones we never thought would see the light of day again, hi Trishula), but it's clear from looking at them that they've come off for their own reasons and not simply because it's technically possible for what they do to be stopped.
That said, while I do admittedly feel that Stratos could stand to at least get a fair shake at trying to get off the banlist (see previous paragraph, the second one in the spoilers, for how), I don't have either any hopes it will nor real desire for it to come off; by this point, I feel HEROes in general would be much better-served by a new design being produced that fills the actual void left by Stratos's absence: a WIND-attribute "HERO" monster with respectable stats (ATK or DEF, either's fine) and an effect that's worth consideration (doesn't have to be super-wow-awesome, just something useful enough to convince folks to run him but not grand enough that he'll find himself on the banlist).

Dyson Sphere
25th August 2016, 02:45 PM
ugh, have to explain this every damn time
major differences between Stratos and his "search on summon" counterparts

Stratos is not Hard OPT, has 5+ different cards that can search him, already has a fair replacement in the form of Shadowmist, has a backrow clearing effect as a bonus if the search was uneeded and most importantly of all, would require those searchers to go to 1 just to consider bringing him back. and that's the Dragon Ruler issue all over again, you don't hit balanced cards just to have a broken one around. Further, "Everything else has it, why can't I have the better version" is a horrible reason to bring him back

his knockoffs have OPT, are usually unsearchable outside of summoner monk, search about 5-15 cards (compared to stratos' 50ish, and with D-HERO's getting more support Stratos just got even more relevant targets than Bubbleman)

There is really no comparison, Stratos is bar none the single best searcher. its like comparing Jar of Greed to Pot of Greed. they do the same thing, one is MUCH better at its job.

Without an Errata, he is not coming back
Unless he is banned in the OCG, he will likely not get an Errata
Thus, in the TCG, he is dead and gone. Forever

to this day, I have yet to see a good reason for Stratos to come back other than HERO fanboys having a tantrum or poorly thought out "Deneb/whatever is at 3 so why isn't Stratos" arguments, Anyone actually have a valid reason why Stratos should be back?

lol to people who actually think thats why he's banned, all hes really banned for was because destiny draw engine used to be good and tele dad used it and guess what they only used him once per turn, so none of what you said is relevant, it was simply konami doing teledad hits and then being too lazy to bring back once the d draw engine was outdated like theyve done with many cards when they became outdated

EBongo
25th August 2016, 03:21 PM
lol to people who actually think thats why he's banned, all hes really banned for was because destiny draw engine used to be good and tele dad used it and guess what they only used him once per turn, so none of what you said is relevant, it was simply konami doing teledad hits and then being too lazy to bring back once the d draw engine was outdated like theyve done with many cards when they became outdated

That's not true. He was (last) banned in September 2013 (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/September_2013_Lists_(TCG)#Changes), during Ruler format. That's 4 years after TeleDAD.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 03:41 PM
Well, I prefer to play heroes mainly for fusion, so a wind target that isn't a vanilla with a poor attack stat would be nice.

But I don't see the problem of having 1 copy of it in a deck. Considering ocg has done it and its still not even in their meta, what would be the problem. Its nowhere near as broken as it used to be. So what if its a searcher that doubles as backrow hate, why does that even matter when you consider that its a monster effect. I don't think there's a deck out there that doesn't tech in at least 3 different monster negation cards.

And the D-hero support is barely support at all. D-heroes have even less searchers that elemental heroes do and can still barely function.

the OCG is a VERY different game. OCG has HFD at 1, Releaser and Super Rejuv at 3 and I don't hear anyone begging to get those back.


lol to people who actually think thats why he's banned, all hes really banned for was because destiny draw engine used to be good and tele dad used it and guess what they only used him once per turn, so none of what you said is relevant, it was simply konami doing teledad hits and then being too lazy to bring back once the d draw engine was outdated like theyve done with many cards when they became outdated

.....wow either you are being a troll or clearly have no clue what you are talking about, nor have you heard of HERO beat and how they ran 7 monsters and still remained consistent solely because of stratos. TeleDAD died when DAD, ROTA, MAlicious, and ETele back in 2009

Sanokal
25th August 2016, 07:24 PM
I can confirm that he is a troll.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 07:37 PM
I can confirm that he is a troll.

Shhhhh I know. this isn't the first time....

Zarkiel
25th August 2016, 08:07 PM
I hear very often that the OCG and TCG metas are in various ways different, so I tend to take statements like these with a rock of salt. Heck, comparing banlists between ours and theirs can in some ways rather keenly illustrate this fact (cases in point, Goyo and Raigeki are still banned across the pond, but folks over here find they're fine where they are now). Personally, while it is potentially 'nowhere near as broken as it used to be', I'd be tempted to assume that with how 'popular' (in a polarizing, love-it-or-hate-it kinda way) Stratos is, someone'd be bound to find a way to use him to grotesque effect in the TCG, if only because someone in the TCG might be more seriously tempted to try to do so.

Another argument 'for' that you gave for him is one that personally grinds my gears to no end -- the 'A Counter Exists, Therefore' argument; for the sake of not making a humongous brick, I've thrown it into a spoiler.
That a counter exists, and therefore a card has a shot at coming off the banlist (among other permutations) is a statement that you could apply to a lot of things in this game, and very seldom will you ever find it terribly applicable: Utopia the Lightning is going to become more widely available, and Kaiju are popular techs anyways, therefore Apoqliphort Towers can afford to come off the banlist; there's lots more avenues for summon hate nowadays, therefore Return from the Different Dimension could come off the list; we have Pendulums now and lots of searching, therefore Trap Dustshoot could also come off the banlist. These examples might leap headlong into reductio ad absurdum, but I'd like to think they rather nicely frame my point all the same: that a counter exists seldom has any relevance to why a card's ended up on the list nor why a card comes off the list, and even if it ever does it's certainly never that reason alone (let alone a major part of it).

Hell, we even saw a good example of this semi-sorta-recently with the testing-the-waters unbanning of Snatch Steal (a common enough practice that has seen a fair amount of other cards not just come off but stay off the banlist, like Dragon Ravine, Goyo, Raigeki, and now more recently Thousand-Eyes Restrict) . . . which rather thoroughly proved that no, no amount of negation, spot removal, targetproofing, or any other reason a fella could come up with could justify its continued presence in the modern metagame. It also showed the value of testing these sorts of claims, as its tentative unbanning at one yielded conclusive proof that yes, if you put it back in our hands we will manage to break it yet again. The meta does change, and cards will come and go from the banlist (even ones we never thought would see the light of day again, hi Trishula), but it's clear from looking at them that they've come off for their own reasons and not simply because it's technically possible for what they do to be stopped.
That said, while I do admittedly feel that Stratos could stand to at least get a fair shake at trying to get off the banlist (see previous paragraph, the second one in the spoilers, for how), I don't have either any hopes it will nor real desire for it to come off; by this point, I feel HEROes in general would be much better-served by a new design being produced that fills the actual void left by Stratos's absence: a WIND-attribute "HERO" monster with respectable stats (ATK or DEF, either's fine) and an effect that's worth consideration (doesn't have to be super-wow-awesome, just something useful enough to convince folks to run him but not grand enough that he'll find himself on the banlist).

My feeling on the matter in terms of a counter is that you kind of have to look at it individually. We have cards that blow up backrow, and we have monsters that search. Both effects are already present and theres several ways a deck could counter his effect. all the other cards are at 3, why can't this one be at 1.

However for something like towers, you don't have a lot of cards that offer immunity and there isn't a ton you can do to stop this guy. Yeah, utopia the lightning is going to be real common, but thats just 1 out, where as something like stratos has at least 5 going for the metagame alone that can and are run in all decks.

Sanokal
25th August 2016, 08:10 PM
Shhhhh I know. this isn't the first time....

Dammit, I hate being sarcasm blind sometimes.

Zarkiel
25th August 2016, 08:14 PM
the OCG is a VERY different game. OCG has HFD at 1, Releaser and Super Rejuv at 3 and I don't hear anyone begging to get those back.



.....wow either you are being a troll or clearly have no clue what you are talking about, nor have you heard of HERO beat and how they ran 7 monsters and still remained consistent solely because of stratos. TeleDAD died when DAD, ROTA, MAlicious, and ETele back in 2009

Its not THAT different though. What is meta over there eventually becomes meta over here for the most part. The only real difference is how they build their decks.

King
25th August 2016, 08:29 PM
I understand the situation for Stratos keeping banned, but what are the conditions for Stratos unban in TCG ? What OCG Has that TCG can't have.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 09:08 PM
My feeling on the matter in terms of a counter is that you kind of have to look at it individually. We have cards that blow up backrow, and we have monsters that search. Both effects are already present and theres several ways a deck could counter his effect. all the other cards are at 3, why can't this one be at 1.

However for something like towers, you don't have a lot of cards that offer immunity and there isn't a ton you can do to stop this guy. Yeah, utopia the lightning is going to be real common, but thats just 1 out, where as something like stratos has at least 5 going for the metagame alone that can and are run in all decks.

you say that, but keep in mind Stratos can blow up backrow AND search, and can be looped very easily. yes both effects are present, now how many are around in 1 card that can be searched by....lessee, 1 ROTA, 3 ECall, 2 Monk, 3 AHL, and 3 Shadowmist. so Searched by 12 cards. Want to take a guess at how many of those will be gone to bring back Stratos? or how many Dank laws I will see in a given hour of YGOpro....

The "Just MST it" Argument, as I like to call it, is of course completely stupid and only an idiot completely unfamiliar with the game would use it seriously and I'd recommend they take a statistics class before they come back to YGO, so I hope you are not actually using that

sad thing is we have had too damn many people use this argument, thankfully none seem to be active anymore, but I digress.

there is no real "out" to stratos any more than the is an out to say Card of Demise or Raigeki, its not something that sits on the field and waits for you to Toolbox it so comparing it to towers is kinda pointless. your "out" to it ammounts to "have 2-3 Strikes facedown" and yes, you will want 2-3, like I said it can be looped easily

This really isn't a matter of "it will make HERO's tier 1/0" or anything like that, its just a matter of not hitting balanced cards to have a problem card come home. and Without Super poly it would just be another R4NK with Dank spam deck anyway, just MAYBE featuring Divine Wind

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 09:12 PM
I understand the situation for Stratos keeping banned, but what are the conditions for Stratos unban in TCG ? What OCG Has that TCG can't have.

Banning and/or Limiting basically every other HERO Searcher and denying any chance of ROTA coming down for starters. A lot of people don't seem to understand exactly how much searching power Stratos brings to the table

Why the OCG has it still is mostly just due to difference in standards, TCG has a much lower bar as to what counts as broken or over-centeralized (for example, Shock Lock. the TCG got rid of that thing long before the OCG finally realized it decided games by just existing) the OCG also already has E Call and AHL @3 with Shadowmist, monk and ROTA at 1 so they don't have that "don't hit balanced cards to bring back Problem card" issue to begin with, which is the main point against Stratos here in the TCG

Zarkiel
25th August 2016, 10:36 PM
you say that, but keep in mind Stratos can blow up backrow AND search, and can be looped very easily. yes both effects are present, now how many are around in 1 card that can be searched by....lessee, 1 ROTA, 3 ECall, 2 Monk, 3 AHL, and 3 Shadowmist. so Searched by 12 cards. Want to take a guess at how many of those will be gone to bring back Stratos? or how many Dank laws I will see in a given hour of YGOpro....

The "Just MST it" Argument, as I like to call it, is of course completely stupid and only an idiot completely unfamiliar with the game would use it seriously and I'd recommend they take a statistics class before they come back to YGO, so I hope you are not actually using that

sad thing is we have had too damn many people use this argument, thankfully none seem to be active anymore, but I digress.

there is no real "out" to stratos any more than the is an out to say Card of Demise or Raigeki, its not something that sits on the field and waits for you to Toolbox it so comparing it to towers is kinda pointless. your "out" to it ammounts to "have 2-3 Strikes facedown" and yes, you will want 2-3, like I said it can be looped easily

This really isn't a matter of "it will make HERO's tier 1/0" or anything like that, its just a matter of not hitting balanced cards to have a problem card come home. and Without Super poly it would just be another R4NK with Dank spam deck anyway, just MAYBE featuring Divine Wind

I would rather have stratos that lets me play other fusions and do different things than a shit ton of searchers. the only other cards that would go to one would be hero cards since rota's already at 1 because its too generic of a search card. But of course I'm an idiot whose been completely unfamiliar with the game since the beginning and my ideas are trash.

Never die
25th August 2016, 11:27 PM
Its not THAT different though. What is meta over there eventually becomes meta over here for the most part. The only real difference is how they build their decks.

Yeah because tcg and ocg exclusive cards/decks do not matter or when/at what point tcg/ocg gets the cards(when star seraph was released ocg they had soul charge and shock master at 3 while when tcg got seraphs they were mostly outdated and tcg had soul charge at 1 and shock master banned for example).

On top of the banlists which in both sides people favor some cards more(ocg liked shock master so much it took them till recently to ban it and tcg disliked gladiator beasts so much it took years till we got their best member back at 3)not to mention both banlists let cards off that help to promote their recents packs and set.

But 'sure' the only thing that matters is that they build the decks differently.

Dread Kaiser
25th August 2016, 11:30 PM
Yeah because tcg and ocg exclusive cards/decks do not matter or when/at what point tcg/ocg gets the cards(when star seraph was released ocg they had soul charge and shock master at 3 while when tcg got seraphs they were mostly outdated and tcg had soul charge at 1 and shock master banned for example).

On top of the banlists which in both sides people favor some cards more(ocg liked shock master so much it took them till recently to ban it and tcg disliked gladiator beasts so much it took years till we got their best member back at 3)not to mention both banlists let cards off that help to promote their recents packs and set.

But 'sure' the only thing that matters is that they build the decks differently.

little heavy on the sarcasm there.....

iNfiniTe Se7eNz
26th August 2016, 06:08 AM
the OCG is a VERY different game. OCG has HFD at 1, Releaser and Super Rejuv at 3 and I don't hear anyone begging to get those back.


I know for a fact I'm not the only one who has been begging for Harpie's Feather Duster. I'd trade Raigeki for it. And I guess we could knock Dark Hole back down to one.

Zarkiel
26th August 2016, 06:17 AM
Yeah because tcg and ocg exclusive cards/decks do not matter or when/at what point tcg/ocg gets the cards(when star seraph was released ocg they had soul charge and shock master at 3 while when tcg got seraphs they were mostly outdated and tcg had soul charge at 1 and shock master banned for example).

On top of the banlists which in both sides people favor some cards more(ocg liked shock master so much it took them till recently to ban it and tcg disliked gladiator beasts so much it took years till we got their best member back at 3)not to mention both banlists let cards off that help to promote their recents packs and set.

But 'sure' the only thing that matters is that they build the decks differently.

But when seraphs came out in tcg, they were still being used. The only reason the metas are different is time release and, within the last two years, ban list differences. But decks that are meta in the ocg become meta in the tcg. If the lists were the same, we'd be running pretty much the same thing as them, especially since ygopro is a pretty common thing in the community now.

But since the ban lists are different, there's deck building differences.

Baroque
26th August 2016, 09:21 AM
My feeling on the matter in terms of a counter is that you kind of have to look at it individually. We have cards that blow up backrow, and we have monsters that search. Both effects are already present and theres several ways a deck could counter his effect. all the other cards are at 3, why can't this one be at 1.
Most other things that blow up backrow or search are, in one way or another, limited in their applications (such as by circumstance [e.g., Ketos requires you to Tribute him to pop backrow] or by mechanics [e.g., Deneb's OPT clause]), and rarely do they ever pack both into one card, let alone without concrete limitations -- after all, it's criminally easy to Summon a guy like Stratos often, sometimes multiple times in one turn. Moreover, you say that there are 'several ways a deck could counter his effect', but that logic runs on the assumptions that a deck will have these 'ways' available and applicable at the time that Stratos is being used, that they will not be expended before Stratos is, that there won't be other things that they might be needed for, and so on and so forth. The longer the 'A Counter Exists, Therefore' argument is put under a magnifying glass, the greater the chance of it catching fire like an ant on a sidewalk.

It is easy to say in a vacuum that 'there are counters', but that is only because there are counters to everything. Again, that a counter exists is terrible reasoning for a card's removal from the banlist; we need only look (again, given that I already mentioned it once) to the classic case of Snatch Steal's temporary unbanning to see a solid example of why this is so.

On paper, there's a ton of counters for it, many of which are also popularly run -- it folds to backrow hate (including popular Quick-Plays MST and Twin Twisters), does naught to targetproofed or effectproof monsters (an increasingly common demographic), and as always can be hit with your typical negation cards. In practice, as we can tell by how quickly it jumped back onto the list after it'd been set to Limited, these mattered about as much as the price of bread does to a whale shark.

Whenever you look at a card on the banlist, it should never cross your mind that 'a counter exists, so maybe it could come off now' -- it never matters in the long run, for reasons already stated. It's how cards interact with one another in general that you should look at, not just 'this can trump this'. Does Stratos generate too much advantage too easily? Does Stratos fit into any particularly ridiculous(ly effective) strategies? Have we seen anything out of it in the past that might still be applicable (or at least, might become applicable again) if he were to come off the list? These questions and others like them (there's plenty of permutations you could apply) have much more weight, hold much more water, in situations like these.

I won't deny that Stratos could at least potentially try to get off the banlist in the way that cards like Snatch Steal and Thousand-Eyes Restrict did (among others), even if I doubt it would stay off it for very long (the TCG's love (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OutWithABang) of it would see to that), but I just can't stand the "A Counter Exists, Therefore" argument being used to justify such a thing occurring.