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View Full Version : What was the biggest Screw up: Utopia VS LSwarm



Dread Kaiser
16th August 2016, 01:40 AM
Since I don't like getting nailed for ...damn anything but off topicness in this case, here's how all this started (https://forums.ygorganization.com/showthread.php/1883-DRL3-Dragons-of-Legend-Unleashed-Checklist?p=38649&viewfull=1#post38649)

so just like the title says, which Translation blunder do you thing was bigger

also hey, new Forum banner looks awesome

Sanokal
16th August 2016, 01:43 AM
Utopia, just to reiterate. Even if I prefer the TCG name and believe that the OCG name was dumb, and that the OCG namers were silly, it's undeniably a stuff up.

King
16th August 2016, 01:48 AM
TCG Naming standards in general, they bug me since 2007-8. I want to have cards with Killer and God in its names.

Dread Kaiser
16th August 2016, 01:50 AM
TCG Naming standards in general, they bug me since 2007-8. I want to have cards with Killer and God in its names.
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/yugioh/images/2/2e/KillerNeedle-MRD-EN-C-UE.png/revision/latest?cb=20150508165312

WHAT IS YOUR SECOND WISH!!!

King
16th August 2016, 01:57 AM
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/yugioh/images/2/2e/KillerNeedle-MRD-EN-C-UE.png/revision/latest?cb=20150508165312

WHAT IS YOUR SECOND WISH!!!

Errata of Apoqliphort Killer with the proper name along with a card with god in the name not Goddes. Also how old is his card ?

Dread Kaiser
16th August 2016, 01:58 AM
Errata of Apoqliphort Killer with the proper name along with a card with god in the name not Goddes. Also how old is his card ?

Metal Raiders, AKA second booster pack for the TCG
for the Anime, Episode 3 i believe. very first card Weevil played

back in the days of Straight translations. sometimes too straight (kagemusha of the blue flame) and the days of Uncensored Harpy Ladies and the like

King
16th August 2016, 02:07 AM
Can't complain about those days.

Dread Kaiser
16th August 2016, 02:34 AM
Can't complain about those days.

plenty of people do. In recall back on disqus there was a nasty fight over how skillful Goat control was, that conversation heralded the single most retarded comment I have ever seen (that says alot).

anyway, what say you, Utopia or LSwarm?

King
16th August 2016, 03:14 AM
plenty of people do. In recall back on disqus there was a nasty fight over how skillful Goat control was, that conversation heralded the single most retarded comment I have ever seen (that says alot).

anyway, what say you, Utopia or LSwarm?

Utopia is far more fucked up than Lswarm. The original Utopia has a lot of Variants that aren't Utopia Monsters So their Support become so messy.

iNfiniTe Se7eNz
16th August 2016, 04:42 AM
Let's take the context:

Verz > Evilswarm
Inverz > Steelswarm

The problem is that all of the cards that supported "Verz" inherently also supported "Inverz", so "lswarm" had to be the workaround to include both "Evilswarm" and "Steelswarm". The "smart" thing to do would have been to call them "Swarm" and "Steel Swarm" respectively. The actually smart thing would be to leave it as "Verz/InVerz".

Then there's this fucking mess:

Kibou Ou ("Hope King") Hope > Utopia
Hope > Utopic (Which isn't even a fucking word, but they had to invent this because the actual term "Utopian" would include itself in cards meant to only support "Utopia")

Now, the real funny thing is that the following "Hope" cards get fucked over-- No. 98: Hopeless, and Zetsubou Shin ("Despair God") Anti-Hope by being translated as Number 98: Antitopian and Dystopia the Despondent respectively. And then we have CXyz Barian Hope which doesn't even have "Hope" in the Japanese kana-- it's Chaos Xyz Kibou Ou Barian. Really, it would have been simple to just call it "Hope King" and be done with it--

No. 39: Kibou Ou Hope > Number 39: Hope King (no issues with its direct evolutions)
No. 99: Kibou Ou Ryu Hope Dragoon> Number 99: Hope Dragoon (although we generally use "Dragun" for some fucking reason, in this case we went straight for "Dragon")
SNo. 0: Hope ZEXAL > S-Number 0: Hope ZEXAL (it should not be "Number S0"; it is understood as "Shining Number")
FNo. 0: Mirai Ou Hope > F-Number 0: Future King Hope ("King Hope" is not the same as "Hope King")
No. 98: Hopeless > Number 98: Hopeless
Zetsubou Shin Anti-Hope > Despair God Anti-Hope (Fuck your reservations against the word "God")
CX Kibou Ou Barian > CXyz King of Hope Barian

Ironically, Utopia Beyond was a helpful change in the TCG-- it's OCG name was Kibou Ou Beyond the Hope, which technically excluded itself by not containing the direct phrase "Kibou Ou Hope", which was added in as an archetype condition. I mean, they could have called it Kibou Ou Hope Beyond for simplicity's sake, but whatever.

I just wish ZWs worked with No. 99, though...


After all of that, I think we can agree that "Utopia" is far more retarded.

Baroque
16th August 2016, 06:14 AM
The "smart" thing to do would have been to call them "Swarm" and "Steel Swarm" respectively.
That would drop them into Arsenal Summoner territory (Swarm of Scarabs, Swarm of Locusts, etc.) hard, so it's kinda easy to see how the Steelswarm name rather thoroughly forced them to make it 'lswarm' or a similar sin against English. Speaking of English . . .


Hope > Utopic (Which isn't even a fucking word, but they had to invent this because the actual term "Utopian" would include itself in cards meant to only support "Utopia")
Actually, 'Utopic' is an actual adjective (thanks, Oxford); it's just not used nearly as often as its big brother 'utopian', so this was them actually working with what they had (it needed to be related to Hope/Utopia, but not work with Hope/Utopia's existing support which called for "Utopia") in a somewhat decent-if-odd manner. Certainly better than what they ended up having to do for good ol' Verzbuth (his given name got thrown under a bus, which only led to further shenanigans when he ended up becoming Sefirabuth/Sephirabuth/Zefraxcition).


After all of that, I think we can agree that "Utopia" is far more retarded.
Honestly, I still feel Inverz -> Steelswarm is worse than King of Wishes, Hope -> Utopia, and I'mma restate why.

Utopia's ramifications might be farther-reaching (by merit of being a protagonist ace with a boatload of upgrades, sidegrades, and references) mechanically, but while we can talk all we want about how it screwed up its subsequent members, it's easy to see when we look at its circumstances that they might've had a good reason for what they did. Sure, they could've gone about it a different way maybe, but whether it was for the sake of saving space on the cards, for the sake of being said in the dubbed anime, or just for the sake of something whose name rolls off the tongue better for the sake of the tykes, or something else entirely, it's not hard to imagine a reason for it that actually holds water for long enough to be drunk.

Inverz -> Steelswarm, on the other hand, has no such justification that can be found. It ended up longer than it started, there's nothing it'd need to be spoken/lip-synced in (and even then if it did have something like that it'd probably make the rename come off worse than it already did), if we bring up the 'for the kids' angle 'Steelswarm' still doesn't roll off the tongue as easily as 'Inverz' (nor is it at all easy to mistake how you're supposed to say 'Inverz', so that couldn't be a reason either), and atop all that you can't even claim censorship as a reason because there's flat-out nothing objectionable about a homophone for 'inverse'. The closest possible reason short of 'changed for the sake of changing it' would be 'changed to sound cooler', and even there that's a subjective reason rather than an objective one and doesn't satisfy in the slightest (hell, I for one think 'Inverz' sounds better, and I know from talking to others that I'm not the only one).

I can understand how awkward it might feel to have so many spinoff archetypes off Utopia, but I honestly feel the justification that might be had for it makes it a lesser evil than the inexplicable alteration the Verz got.

(As an aside, most of Utopia's archetypal splits are less to do with his rename and more to do with the cards being made as the plot demanded them to be -- support dedicated to C39: Utopia Ray, to Ray V, to C39 in general, and to Utopia in general were branches all made by individual card(s) rather than the naming convention; the only bit that really stemmed from the name-change was Utopi, by way of 'Utopic' being used to mark how No.99 lacked the 'King of Wishes' title that made OCG 'Utopia' support support 'Utopia' . . . and that's just expressed as ""Utopia" or "Utopic"" rather than as 'Utopi'.)

iNfiniTe Se7eNz
16th August 2016, 06:42 AM
That would drop them into Arsenal Summoner territory (Swarm of Scarabs, Swarm of Locusts, etc.) hard, so it's kinda easy to see how the Steelswarm name rather thoroughly forced them to make it 'lswarm' or a similar sin against English. Speaking of English . . .


Actually, 'Utopic' is an actual adjective (thanks, Oxford); it's just not used nearly as often as its big brother 'utopian', so this was them actually working with what they had (it needed to be related to Hope/Utopia, but not work with Hope/Utopia's existing support which called for "Utopia") in a somewhat decent-if-odd manner. Certainly better than what they ended up having to do for good ol' Verzbuth (his given name got thrown under a bus, which only led to further shenanigans when he ended up becoming Sefirabuth/Sephirabuth/Zefraxcition).


Honestly, I still feel Inverz -> Steelswarm is worse than King of Wishes, Hope -> Utopia, and I'mma restate why.

Utopia's ramifications might be farther-reaching (by merit of being a protagonist ace with a boatload of upgrades, sidegrades, and references) mechanically, but while we can talk all we want about how it screwed up its subsequent members, it's easy to see when we look at its circumstances that they might've had a good reason for what they did. Sure, they could've gone about it a different way maybe, but whether it was for the sake of saving space on the cards, for the sake of being said in the dubbed anime, or just for the sake of something whose name rolls off the tongue better for the sake of the tykes, or something else entirely, it's not hard to imagine a reason for it that actually holds water for long enough to be drunk.

Inverz -> Steelswarm, on the other hand, has no such justification that can be found. It ended up longer than it started, there's nothing it'd need to be spoken/lip-synced in (and even then if it did have something like that it'd probably make the rename come off worse than it already did), if we bring up the 'for the kids' angle 'Steelswarm' still doesn't roll off the tongue as easily as 'Inverz' (nor is it at all easy to mistake how you're supposed to say 'Inverz', so that couldn't be a reason either), and atop all that you can't even claim censorship as a reason because there's flat-out nothing objectionable about a homophone for 'inverse'. The closest possible reason short of 'changed for the sake of changing it' would be 'changed to sound cooler', and even there that's a subjective reason rather than an objective one and doesn't satisfy in the slightest (hell, I for one think 'Inverz' sounds better, and I know from talking to others that I'm not the only one).

I can understand how awkward it might feel to have so many spinoff archetypes off Utopia, but I honestly feel the justification that might be had for it makes it a lesser evil than the inexplicable alteration the Verz got.

(As an aside, most of Utopia's archetypal splits are less to do with his rename and more to do with the cards being made as the plot demanded them to be -- support dedicated to C39: Utopia Ray, to Ray V, to C39 in general, and to Utopia in general were branches all made by individual card(s) rather than the naming convention; the only bit that really stemmed from the name-change was Utopi, by way of 'Utopic' being used to mark how No.99 lacked the 'King of Wishes' title that made OCG 'Utopia' support support 'Utopia' . . . and that's just expressed as ""Utopia" or "Utopic"" rather than as 'Utopi'.)

I'll amend that, call it "Swarm Spawn" and "Steel Swarm Spawn" or something. But as I myself said (and you agreed)-- just keep it "(In)Verz" because there's nothing wrong with the name.

I will take issue with your attempted legitimization of the "Utopia" name change-- your average kid isn't going to know the definition of the word "utopia". There is no more reason for the name change in the case of "Utopia" than there is for "lswarm".

Baroque
16th August 2016, 07:09 AM
I will take issue with your attempted legitimization of the "Utopia" name change-- your average kid isn't going to know the definition of the word "utopia". There is no more reason for the name change in the case of "Utopia" than there is for "lswarm".
I never said the kid needed to know what the word meant -- nor do they need to, for that matter; 'for the sake of the tykes' is a matter of making it roll off the tongue, or at least be simpler to say. Sure, 'King of Wishes, Hope' can be shortened to 'Hope' in speaking, but with the full name there's a lot more there for a kid to wrangle with than just 'Utopia' -- compare it to Combusken/Wakasyamo/Wakashamo, where you shouldn't really expect a kid to know what combustion is either but 'Combusken' (Com-bus-ken) manages to roll off our Western tongues a bit better than Wakasyamo (Wa-ka-sya-mo) does, or for a more classic example Bulbasaur (Bul-ba-saur) instead of Fushigidane (Fu-shi-gi-da-ne). Perhaps 'Hope King' might have done better in the long run while maintaining the 'hope' message, yes, but when we look at it this way we can see how 'Utopia' could be seen as a way to make it easier for the kids (given the name's already got 'Number 39:' tacked on).

Also, you're cherry-picking there, man; I also mentioned the possible reasons of saving space on the cards or having it be said in the dub ('Kibou ou Hope' -> 'Uto pi a', while a bit shaky, might certainly be able to be pulled off in anime moreso than IRL). I can't claim to know what reason there actually was for the change to Utopia, but we can at least say that there's actual possible reasons that could be ascribed to it that hold water; something Steelswarm can't really claim, as it falls short on a lot of the same potential points.

iNfiniTe Se7eNz
16th August 2016, 07:20 AM
I never said the kid needed to know what the word meant -- nor do they need to, for that matter; 'for the sake of the tykes' is a matter of making it roll off the tongue, or at least be simpler to say. Sure, 'King of Wishes, Hope' can be shortened to 'Hope' in speaking, but with the full name there's a lot more there for a kid to wrangle with than just 'Utopia' -- compare it to Combusken/Wakasyamo/Wakashamo, where you shouldn't really expect a kid to know what combustion is either but 'Combusken' (Com-bus-ken) manages to roll off our Western tongues a bit better than Wakasyamo (Wa-ka-sya-mo) does, or for a more classic example Bulbasaur (Bul-ba-saur) instead of Fushigidane (Fu-shi-gi-da-ne). Perhaps 'Hope King' might have done better in the long run while maintaining the 'hope' message, yes, but when we look at it this way we can see how 'Utopia' could be seen as a way to make it easier for the kids (given the name's already got 'Number 39:' tacked on).

Also, you're cherry-picking there, man; I also mentioned the possible reasons of saving space on the cards or having it be said in the dub ('Kibou ou Hope' -> 'Uto pi a', while a bit shaky, might certainly be able to be pulled off in anime moreso than IRL). I can't claim to know what reason there actually was for the change to Utopia, but we can at least say that there's actual possible reasons that could be ascribed to it that hold water; something Steelswarm can't really claim, as it falls short on a lot of the same potential points.

The difference between YGO and PKMN names is that the latter tends to creativity and puns whereas the former (and yes, I will acknowledge that we do have puns in YGO, but--) tends to be a lot more straightforward. I'm looking at you, Blue-Eyes White Dragon.

I'll point out how "Hope King" is two syllables and "Utopia" is three. There's also more potential for mispronunciation since the word is less known "you-top-ee-a". The character difference is 3, negligible even in the form of "Number C39: Utopia Ray Victory" especially in comparison to the likes of "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Evening Twilight". As for "changing it because it sounds cooler" -- this is no more legitimate in the case of either.

Baroque
16th August 2016, 07:43 AM
I'll point out how "Hope King" is two syllables and "Utopia" is three. There's also more potential for mispronunciation since the word is less known "you-top-ee-a". The character difference is 3, negligible even in the form of "Number C39: Utopia Ray Victory" especially in comparison to the likes of "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Evening Twilight". As for "changing it because it sounds cooler" -- this is no more legitimate in the case of either.
You're comparing 'Hope King' and 'Utopia', not 'Number 39: King of Wishes, Hope' and 'Number 39: Utopia' there, brah; I feel I need to drive home at this point I'm not contesting that 'Hope King' could've been better than 'Utopia' (hell, I mentioned in my last post that 'Hope King' perhaps might've done the job better in the long run), I'm saying 'these might be reasons why they went from King of Wishes, Hope to Utopia'.

When you compare 'Number 39: King of Wishes, Hope' and 'Number 39: Utopia', it's pretty easy to see how one could think that the change was made for the sake of it being easier on the kids -- not in terms of 'number of syllables' or 'pronunciation' (though the latter of those two certainly played parts in some of my examples), but in terms of just being easier on the kids. Try to get a kid to remember 'Number 39: King of Wishes, Hope' and somewhere along the way their mind's going to stumble over itself -- maybe he's King of Dreams, Hope, for instance, or maybe he was Number 35? Shortening the 'King of Wishes, Hope' part down to something like 'Utopia' or 'Hope King' simplifies matters in a way that's kid-friendly -- you're asking the kid to remember that Number 39 is named 'Utopia' or 'Hope King' (or that the guy named Utopia/Hope King is Number 39), not asking them to remember that Number 39, the King of Wishes, is named Hope (or that the King of Wishes, whose name is Hope, is Number 39, etc.). Y'see what I'm stabbing at?

(EDIT: As to where this comes in on the Combusken and Bulbasaur examples I used, their names 'Combusken -> Combustion + chicken' and 'Bulbasaur -> Bulb + dinosaur' mean more to a kid in that there's concepts they can attach to 'em than, say, Fushigidane [try asking a kid what that means and look at the expression of bafflement on their face]. It's more memorable with the 'creativity and puns' than it is with the straight Japanese, most of the time.)

iNfiniTe Se7eNz
16th August 2016, 07:59 AM
You're comparing 'Hope King' and 'Utopia', not 'Number 39: King of Wishes, Hope' and 'Number 39: Utopia' there, brah; I feel I need to drive home at this point I'm not contesting that 'Hope King' could've been better than 'Utopia' (hell, I mentioned in my last post that 'Hope King' perhaps might've done the job better in the long run), I'm saying 'these might be reasons why they went from King of Wishes, Hope to Utopia'.

When you compare 'Number 39: King of Wishes, Hope' and 'Number 39: Utopia', it's pretty easy to see how one could think that the change was made for the sake of it being easier on the kids -- not in terms of 'number of syllables' or 'pronunciation' (though the latter of those two certainly played parts in some of my examples), but in terms of just being easier on the kids. Try to get a kid to remember 'Number 39: King of Wishes, Hope' and somewhere along the way their mind's going to stumble over itself -- maybe he's King of Dreams, Hope, for instance, or maybe he was Number 35? Shortening the 'King of Wishes, Hope' part down to something like 'Utopia' or 'Hope King' simplifies matters in a way that's kid-friendly -- you're asking the kid to remember that Number 39 is named 'Utopia' or 'Hope King' (or that the guy named Utopia/Hope King is Number 39), not asking them to remember that Number 39, the King of Wishes, is named Hope (or that the King of Wishes, whose name is Hope, is Number 39, etc.). Y'see what I'm stabbing at?

(EDIT: As to where this comes in on the Combusken and Bulbasaur examples I used, their names 'Combusken -> Combustion + chicken' and 'Bulbasaur -> Bulb + dinosaur' mean more to a kid in that there's concepts they can attach to 'em than, say, Fushigidane [try asking a kid what that means and look at the expression of bafflement on their face]. It's more memorable with the 'creativity and puns' than it is with the straight Japanese, most of the time.)

Fair enough, but I ought to point out that "King of Wishes, Hope" is a contrived translation. It's really "Hope King, Hope" which includes a sort of redundancy that kind-of works in Japanese-- it'll use the kanji in one part of the name, and then transliterated English in katakana for another. The straightfoward thing is simply lopping off the redundant part, which accomplishes that very simplification you point out.

Volteccer
16th August 2016, 01:51 PM
You think by now they would have learned to not use regular words are archetype names.

Dread Kaiser
16th August 2016, 03:41 PM
You think by now they would have learned to not use regular words are archetype names.

You'd think, but....."Red"

Baroque
16th August 2016, 04:16 PM
You think by now they would have learned to not use regular words are archetype names.
Sometimes that's more a problem dropped in the lap of localization than one in the OCG alone -- case in point, the 'Red' Dread Kaiser just mentioned is less of a 'regular word' and more a 'foreign loanword' ('reddo'), sorta like if we'd ended up going with Rouge or Rojo in the same circumstance. It's only when it hops the pond over here that we start to see the translators get their grey hairs early and end up with shenanigans like these.

Unfortunately, that just makes me chafe more at how, when they had a hard-to-match name dropped in their lap they decided to squander it and ended up getting a nasty surprise not terribly long after (yes Steelswarm still irks me).

iNfiniTe Se7eNz
16th August 2016, 05:22 PM
Early on there was a tradition of taking English OCG card names and naming them with Japanese names in the TCG (Thunder Bolt > Raigeki; Critter > Sangan), so in theory that could be applied for archetypes such as "Red"-- "Aka" or "Akai". On the other hand, you'd have to include Red-Eyes by default, so then you'd be better off keeping it as "Red".

Although, there is an example of this actually working in one case: "Ritua" > "Gishki", being corruptions of 'Ritual' and 'Gishiki' respectively.

King
16th August 2016, 05:28 PM
Can't wait for a "A" or "B" "Archetype"

Dread Kaiser
16th August 2016, 05:29 PM
Can't wait for a "A" or "B" "Archetype"

in the anime, "V", "W", "X", "Y", and "Z" are all Archetypes, thanks Hyper Coat (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Coat)

King
16th August 2016, 05:36 PM
in the anime, "V", "W", "X", "Y", and "Z" are all Archetypes, thanks Hyper Coat (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Hyper_Coat)

Thank god this is just anime stuff.

Sanokal
16th August 2016, 07:26 PM
You'd think, but....."Red"



At least the OCG had the brains to change it.