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Indytotof
28th January 2017, 01:57 PM
Hello guys.

I'm opening this thread to discuss. With Arc-V coming to an end, it's time to settle down some stuff. While I was reading some Arc-V thread in Neo Arl Cradle, I've seen many posts that vomit hates about the show and some of his arcs and how "it was better in Standard Arc" but yet, those same people still watching Arc-V. And their justifaction is just laughable :


It's too late to drop it off

News flash, it's never to late to stop watching something you despise.



Personnally, I want don't think Arc-V is the worst Yu-Gi-Oh! spin-off. To me, GX and his plot that is essentially made of pointless fillers and don't make any sense (the so loved Supreme King was never introduce before season 3. It just comes out of nowhere. Zero foreshadowing. We can criticize Zarc all we want, but it was there since the beginning of the show). Yes the Synchro Arc feel like a complete different show since it have his own plot (that takes out Arc-V's main plot btw) and was way too long. Yes the Fusion Arc fillers were horrible (except BB, but I'll discuss about that matter after). Yes Xyz Arc was rush.

But guess what, that's how it works when the staff change from an episode to another and when you hired people that can't handle long-running shows (and people that hate writing duels.... for a show that is centered around duels.) like Arc-V. All the other Yu-Gi-Oh! series suffers from that.


Now I'm going to talk about the immense amouth of undeserve hates both Zarc and BB gets. Maybe you wonder why the hate ? Here is the reason:


BB arc last way too long

May I remind you that DM got a WHOLE FILLER SEASON that added nothing to the main plot (Virtual World arc at least had the decensy to flesh out the Big 5 and, more importantly, both Mokuba's and Kaiba's characters) ? Remember GX that can be resume as "Filler the Anime" ?

Battle Beast, in the contrary of Siegfried Shroeder, makes Yuya questioning himself, reminding him how much he had evolved since the beginning of the show. Battle Beast served as a foreshadowing of what Yuya will be when Zarc will take over. Yes, the BB arc wasn't actually a filler and serve the main plot.

Now speaking of Zarc. People criticize him for being a boring villain that is just irrational destruction.... Did you actually watch and understand Arc-V ? Zarc is supposed to be irrational destruction incarnate ! He supposed to represente humanity's inner sadism and lust for power. The diametrical opposite of what Yuya is (as a reminder, Yuya want to make people smile through his peaceful dueling and don't care bout losing or winning. All that counts is to pull off a good show. Zarc is winning at all cost, even brutally assaulting to the point of blood spilling his opponents). If you have failed to notice this, please re-watch Arc-V and understand the meaning of the show. Zarc isn't as bland as Don Thousand is, and the Haokenryu version of the Heavenly Dragons aren't as ridiculously OP as C1000 (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Number_C1000:_Numeronius) or iC1000 (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Number_iC1000%3A_Numeronius_Numeronia). Zarc himself is OP ? Yeah, because Zorc, Darkness, Z-ONE and Don Thousand are fair and balanced. Zarc is Arc-V final boss, of course he will be OP.


Arc-V have indeed poor pacing and imperfect writing. He is also the show that handle villains that isn't Yuri/Roger/Sergey very poorly. Academia was the least threatening and competent villain organization in YGO history (with the exception of Yuri and Herr Doktor). It is also "Potential waste the Anime".

Also, people rejoice of the last 8 episode being centere around another Junior Championship. And yet the same people despise Synchro Arc for having another tournament. It's truely time to knows what you want guys. Personnaly, screw Junior Championship 2.0. I want explanation about Zarc, Yuya's pendant and the Pendulum Summon. Finishing Arc-V with another Junior Championship is just lazy writing.... IMHO

No YGO shows were perfect. None should be.

But you, what do you think about Arc-V ? Why do you still watch it ?

KingJinzo
28th January 2017, 04:21 PM
I have doubt about the last part, but whatever. Next week will shows us what is going on.

Zarc being overpowered is part of his personality and covers up his superiority complex. His deck is very enjoyable, since it's not just one overpowered boss monster, but a boss monster supported by his servants with great offensive and defensive potential and they gain also support from their Supreme King. At least, Zarc hasn't reached the fifth digit yet and it takes a lot more to take him down rather than just another overpowered card. Geh, Sephylon and Numeronius Numeronia lasted for only one turn, and Dark Neosphere lasted two turns. Zarc however is still present since the fourth turn, and a dozen of people aren't able to get rid of this dragon once.

If Zorc Necrophades is ever going to be a Monster Card, make him 5000/5000, give him some of immunities and a hand negation effect (to counter Exodia).

King
28th January 2017, 06:20 PM
ARC-V Isn't bad, what made the show look bad was the direction took by the story developers that couldn't be able to live to its expectations. ARC-V Have so many aspects to explore and improved, not only in the Plot but in the Dueling as well. The plot could be more deep, like a sci-fi thriller, since it embrace things like dimensions being split in 4, fusion of people's consciousness. YGO tends to have some flaws at its ending point. Overall ARC-V is enjoyable, it still more well directed than Zexal, they were hyping Don K for almost half of season to be a total letdown at the end.

ScionStorm
28th January 2017, 07:19 PM
Arc-V is the best over all series to me since the DM series. It has a lot of faults and the pacing suggests the writers were lead to believe the show was going to be longer that it ended up being but from beginning up to this point it has been the best handled long game plot, featuring an active female character with plot relevance the whole way through, interesting deck strategies and a lot of supporting characters the writers at least tried to give notable character arc development too.

Sanokal
28th January 2017, 07:23 PM
Hello guys.

I'm opening this thread to discuss. With Arc-V coming to an end, it's time to settle down some stuff. While I was reading some Arc-V thread in Neo Arl Cradle, I've seen many posts that vomit hates about the show and some of his arcs and how "it was better in Standard Arc" but yet, those same people still watching Arc-V. And their justifaction is just laughable. "It's too late to drop it off."
News flash, it's never to late to stop watching something you despise.

Good for you. Why do I still watch it? That's simple. It's the same reason that I still love and enjoy the Star Wars prequels, the Hobbit films, and play the Final Fantasy XIII games; I ENJOY it, I'm invested in it, and I want to see how it ends and goes. I still genuinely care about this series, it's really the first to grab me since DM (GX I had a sporadic watching with, 5D's I mostly saw through summaries, and ZEXAL I mainly watched for certain characters).


Now I'm going to talk about the immense amouth of undeserve hates both Zarc and BB gets. Maybe you wonder why the hate ? Here is the reason:

''BB arc last way too long''

May I remind you that DM got a WHOLE FILLER SEASON that added nothing to the main plot (Virtual World arc at least had the decensy to flesh out the Big 5 and, more importantly, both Mokuba's and Kaiba's characters) ? Remember GX that can be resume as "Filler the Anime" ?

Battle Beast, in the contrary of Siegfried Shroeder, makes Yuya questioning himself, reminding him how much he had evolved since the beginning of the show. Battle Beast served as a foreshadowing of what Yuya will be when Zarc will take over. Yes, the BB arc wasn't actually a filler and serve the main plot.

You know, until now I never looked at it as foreshadowing. Now how they handled him makes sense. I still reckon he could have been better used, but then the hints to Zarc would make less sense.


Now speaking of Zarc. People criticize him for being a boring villain that is just irrational destruction.... Did you actually watch and understand Arc-V ? Zarc is supposed to be irrational destruction incarnate ! He supposed to represente humanity's inner sadism and lust for power. The diametrical opposite of what Yuya is (as a reminder, Yuya want to make people smile through his peaceful dueling and don't care bout losing or winning. All that counts is to pull off a good show. Zarc is winning at all cost, even brutally assaulting to the point of blood spilling his opponents). If you have failed to notice this, please re-watch Arc-V and understand the meaning of the show. Zarc isn't as bland as Don Thousand is, and the Haokenryu version of the Heavenly Dragons aren't as ridiculously OP as C1000 (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Number_C1000:_Numeronius) or iC1000 (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Number_iC1000%3A_Numeronius_Numeronia). Zarc himself is OP ? Yeah, because Zorc, Darkness, Z-ONE and Don Thousand are fair and balanced. Zarc is Arc-V final boss, of course he will be OP.

Jinzo already answered this one.


Arc-V have indeed poor pacing and imperfect writing. He is also the show that handle villains that isn't Yuri/Roger/Sergey very poorly. Academia was the least threatening and competent villain organization in YGO history (with the exception of Yuri and Herr Doktor). It is also "Potential waste the Anime".
*cheerfully, like Boomstick* Oh, that's bull****! Remember every single flashback to Heartland? That stuff was unnerving. They did waste them near the end unfortunately, just because of the direction the story took. Also, where the hell is the Aide? (If no-one remembers him, I'm torn on being pissed with you and being understanding.)


Also, people rejoice of the last 8 episode being centere around another Junior Championship. And yet the same people despise Synchro Arc for having another tournament. It's truely time to knows what you want guys. Personnaly, screw Junior Championship 2.0. I want explanation about Zarc, Yuya's pendant and the Pendulum Summon. Finishing Arc-V with another Junior Championship is just lazy writing.... IMHO
That is of course, assuming this is what is actually happening. And before you rattle off that staff thing again, provide a source.

ScionStorm
28th January 2017, 07:35 PM
Did anybody else notice Leo's deck is a reference to Amnael/Doctor Banner from GX? The Spirit Cores are a reference to his Alchemy theme. The four elements in alchemy are represented by 4 spirit creatures- Salamander of Fire, Sylph of Air, Undine of Water and Gnome of Earth.

NassX
28th January 2017, 07:42 PM
Did anybody else notice Leo's deck is a reference to Amnael/Doctor Banner from GX? The Spirit Cores are a reference to his Alchemy theme. The four elements in alchemy are represented by 4 spirit creatures- Salamander of Fire, Sylph of Air, Undine of Water and Gnome of Earth.

too bad he only showed 2 of them

Indytotof
28th January 2017, 07:43 PM
Did anybody else notice Leo's deck is a reference to Amnael/Doctor Banner from GX? The Spirit Cores are a reference to his Alchemy theme. The four elements in alchemy are represented by 4 spirit creatures- Salamander of Fire, Sylph of Air, Undine of Water and Gnome of Earth.

That makes actually sense. But to confirmed this, we still need to see the WATER and EARTH ones... which isn't going to happen.

Sanokal: Maybe you need to read the resume of 141. And Ono confirmed in an interview that this week ep is the last one of the Zarc arc. Feel free to google it. Some people take this as truth in Neo Ark Cradle. But take this info with a grain of salt.

Also, I need to remind you that I also enjoy Arc-V (and the Star Wars prequels too, which aren't as bad as the purists said they were.... but that's another topic). I've open this topic because it puzzle me that so many people seems to see no redeeming qualities in Arc-V and says it is the worst of the YGO spin-off and yet still watch the show when they could just... ignore Arc-V ever existed and watch something else before YGO 6 airs.

KingJinzo
28th January 2017, 08:59 PM
Also, I need to remind you that I also enjoy Arc-V (and the Star Wars prequels too, which aren't as bad as the purists said they were.... but that's another topic). I've open this topic because it puzzle me that so many people seems to see no redeeming qualities in Arc-V and says it is the worst of the YGO spin-off and yet still watch the show when they could just... ignore Arc-V ever existed and watch something else before YGO 6 airs.

Not many viewers are that smart or actually use their brains to really see through the series. The comment section from YT is filled with such people who have no idea what they are talking about, others don't like the main characters for very stupid reasons, while some others remember some stuff wrong.

Dread Kaiser
28th January 2017, 09:17 PM
my only issue with the BB arc was BB himself
why was he a thing? Where was the Obelisk Force? I'd have rather seen more of them, along with an Obelisk Force "Captain" who could have been the walking Ancient Gear Structure Deck advertisement instead of having Yuri Switch decks

Also people need to just quit the bitching, I hated Zexal and I still watched it to the end. and no redeeming qualities my ass, everyone, EVERYONE, Loved ARC V til around Episode 55 or so. Cept Raiko, but that's another matter

- - - Updated - - -



If Zorc Necrophades is ever going to be a Monster Card, make him 5000/5000, give him some of immunities and a hand negation effect (to counter Exodia).

Exodia has no effect. Victory conditions are not effects, you CANNOT negate them. the only effect that can possibly get around Exodia is "You cannot lose while X is on the field"

King
28th January 2017, 09:31 PM
If ARC-V Ends up with some loose ends, i hope the new Anime uses the same universe to explain such things.

Dread Kaiser
28th January 2017, 09:58 PM
If ARC-V Ends up with some loose ends, i hope the new Anime uses the same universe to explain such things.

yeah more continuity would be nice

Sanokal
28th January 2017, 10:01 PM
yeah more continuity would be nice

If the dimensions end up re-fusing (which I am seriously hoping will happen, because goddammit I want our old Yu-Gi-Oh! world back!), then there's certainly plenty to be explored.

King
28th January 2017, 10:15 PM
If the universes were connected Yu-Gi-Oh! would be a story far more intresting and well structured.

Dyson Sphere
28th January 2017, 11:03 PM
i personally do agree with that it went somewhat downhill after standard arc, but i still watch it because it still had some great duels and moments that i enjoyed, even though i did think about dropping during xyz arc and battle beast there were still those little quality moments that had me coming back like yugo vs rin and how they handled yuri, which is why i still want him to come back and be the final villain somehow, even though the show definitely made bad decisions like legacy characters, abandoning certain character arcs like sora, and then not giving certain characters not enough duels/screen time like gongenzaka, and yuzu, and i heard there were a lot of problems behind the scenes. so while i do think it could've been a lot better, its still decent and can be entertaining at times

MadRest
28th January 2017, 11:09 PM
Did anybody else notice Leo's deck is a reference to Amnael/Doctor Banner from GX? The Spirit Cores are a reference to his Alchemy theme. The four elements in alchemy are represented by 4 spirit creatures- Salamander of Fire, Sylph of Air, Undine of Water and Gnome of Earth.

Not really. A lot of Yu-Gi-Oh! cards reuse the same themes from a different series of cards. Both Prophecy and Arcana Force are based on the Major Arcana. There are three series:—Crystrons, Crystal Beasts, and Gem-Knights—based on precious stones. Also, guess what all of the "V" cards Vector gave to Yuma are based on: the same thing as Leo's Spirit Cores.

ScionStorm
28th January 2017, 11:54 PM
yeah more continuity would be nice

The GX to Arc-V's DM.

KingKaash
29th January 2017, 12:13 AM
Arc-V had so much potential. Like tons of potential. And it did not capitalize on a lot of it. But Arc-V is still a win for me because it brought together all the summoning methods in one series. That by itself is enough for me to be content. Yes they most definitely rushed it which I have mentioned far too many times but like I mentioned in the Ep Summary, I'm going to take Arc-V for what it is. When I was younger I didn't look at flaws. I enjoyed what was being shown to me. It's natural now that we're all older to have expectations, especially with a storyline this good, and to notice flaws. But I've realized it's best to dial down the analysis, sit back and relax, and just watch where they take it. We can criticize (like that one guy would) as much as we want but ultimately it's not gonna change anything.

I personally like Zarc because for the first time, a lot of characters are getting to take a shot at him. Sure they're getting wiped out in a couple of turns but at least they're being used. How many times have we seen just the protagonist and his rival take on the final boss alone? Zarc is crushing everyone in his path and they've allowed everyone to take part in his rampage. I just kinda don't understand how anyone will stop Zarc. Like what methods are there to beating him?

BB was fine with me. He was another threat used by the feared Academia. I expected things like that. Like Dread mentioned, as fodder as the Obelisk Force were throughout, it would've just made sense to see them somewhere on Academia and have a captain of them as a threat. Unless maybe Yuri is their captain. But maybe we are to assume that all of Obelisk Force was carded to power Arc-V. And as a side note, it's just stupid to me to not have brought back Barrett, as lame as his deck was.

Like I keep saying, I hope the new series includes all summoning methods. It really enhances the show. The writers can't do away with Xyz summoning right? RIGHT?

LolsterXD97
29th January 2017, 02:33 AM
Standard for me had Arc-V's best moments hands down. They did great stuff like making Monster Mash.dek playable, giving the main female a rival and great development, having all the Summoning Methods, etc. I have to mention it had the best Duel in all of Arc-V in the form of Sora vs Shun, I just liked the intensity and how they went back and forth spamming different Boss Monsters instead of just sticking to one, and the last turn with Sora going batshit crazy just nailed it for me. However, for me the writing starts to decline from episode 37 onwards starting with Yuto's death, and after that we waste time in the Maiami Championship more than we needed and important Duels like Shun vs Sora 2 and Yuzu vs Yuri were skipped (also the You Show kids ones to flesh-out them and Reira, but those fall short to the former two). My favorite character from this Arc was Mieru, she was just so kawaii and had an unique Deck centered on Ritual Summon combined with Flip Summon.

The Synchro Arc wasn't that bad like some people say, but it does feel detached from the main plot and gathering allies isn't the most exciting goal ever. You could have cut episodes 56-59 and have the Lancers arrested from the start, and also cut some Duels from the Friendship Cup to one episode instead of two. What bothered me the most about the tournament overall was that the Lancers were enclosed in hotel suites instead of letting them interact each other, which made the experience less enganging for me. There are also things that feel rushed like Sora's redemption being off-screen, Shun's change of heart also being off-screen, and the City's social differences being resolved so quickly with only 1 Duel. However what I hated the most was episode 92, first you have the Yugo vs Yuri hype being thrown into the trash can thanks to Yuzu's plot cockblocking bracelet, then you had her and Serena being kidnapped like damsels in distress, and finally Sergey just coming out of nowhere and finishing off both Barrett and Yuya (but the rocket boots were hilarious). From this Arc I loved Dennis, JACK ATLAS, Ruri's design being revealed, Starving Venom's debut and Yuri getting screentime.

The Xyz Arc really deserved more episodes (it had 12, but if you consider that two and a half of them belonged to Fusion and one was a recap chapter with only new information at the end, you can reduce it to 9). There were definitively rushed things like Kaito's change of heart which was off-screen and Academia's change of heart which was so sudden and Xyz's reaction to it which was immediately forgiving them, with only a passing mention of Allen not being sure about it. Other thing I disliked was Yuto hijacking Yuya's body in 104 and never being called out on it after that (WTF?). Also The Man and Sawatari being completely useless and just jobbing to Kaito and the Tyler Sisters off-screen. From this Arc I loved Asuka's and Edo's debut episodes, Ruri finally talking, more Yuri screentime and the Tyler Sisters, especially Grace.

Fusion for me is when the writing definitively declined. Episodes 112-125 had so many errors this would end up in a very long wall of text, so I will just say one of its worst mistakes was Yuzu being anticlimactically kidnapped in the laziest way possible and her brainwashing only serving to piss Yuya off and nothing else. Episodes 126-139 weren't safe either, but I will just say 130 destroyed one of the most hyped Duels in the entire series, just like episode 92 but even worse. And talking about Zarc, I'm dissapointed how he was never really fleshed out on his totality, when he was supposed to be what the entire show was building up to plot-wise. From this Arc I loved each time Ruri or Yuri appeared.

Overall Arc-V's apex was Standard, but after it the writing declines slowly and even then there are still good moments that manage to rise above all the trash. Personally its my least favorite out of the 5 and even if I have been criticalazing it very much there still are things I love from it no matter how they end up. To answer why I'm still watching it besides the quality decline: Its just that I want to end what I started and even besides all the crap that has happened, I still hope it ends on a good note.

Dread Kaiser
29th January 2017, 02:59 AM
The Synchro Arc wasn't bad like some people say, but it does feel detached from the main plot and gathering allies isn't the most exciting goal ever. You could have cut episodes 56-59 and have the Lancers arrested from the start, and also cut some Duels from the Friendship Cup to one episode instead of two. There are also things that feel rushed like Sora's redemption being off-screen, Shun's change of heart also being off-screen, and the City's social differences being resolved so quickly with only 1 Duel. However what I hated the most was episode 92, first you have the Yugo vs Yuri hype being thrown into the trash can thanks to Yuzu's plot cockblocking bracelet, then you had Yuzu and Serena being kidnapped like damsels in distress, and finally Sergey just coming out of nowhere and finishing off both Barrett and Yuya (but the rocket boots were hilarious). What I loved from the Arc were Enjoy, JACK ATLAS and Ruri's design being revealed which for me was one of the most gorgerous in the entire franchise. Also Reira's developement, but that sadly didn't go anywhere after the Synchro Arc.


No mention of Rogets GLORIOUS freak out? you, sir, disappoint me

or the related Jack VS Sergey duel, was basically the infamous Yusei VS "JUST END YOUR TURN DAMNIT" Jean, done right this time

I am now Imagining a 5D's Roget being Team Unicorns sponsor, screaming END! YOUR! TURN! in the VIP Booth

I had no real issues with the Synchro arc
to me, it was simply not as good as what came before it (which isn't saying much as what came before is excellent)

Xyz, Rushed. HARD. that oddly optimistic "BTW everything is all right now" ending reeks of it

Fusion.......there are things I would have done much differently (again, where is the Obelisk Force?)

LolsterXD97
29th January 2017, 03:02 AM
No mention of Rogets GLORIOUS freak out? you, sir, disappoint me

or the related Jack VS Sergey duel, was basically the infamous Yusei VS "JUST END YOUR TURN DAMNIT" Jean, done right this time

Everything involving JACK ATLAS also includes the Jack vs Sergey Duel which included Roger's freak out, but yeah I should have specified it.

ScionStorm
29th January 2017, 03:46 AM
Arc-V is probably my favorite series since DM. Zexal is my least favorite, followed secondly, after a long stretch, by GX. As much as I loved seeing all the different deck themes they played around with, the show itself felt lost for it's own purpose storywise. I only ever really engaged in the story after they got transported to the monster dimensions and Judai became the villain. I even liked watching the final season for Judai-post-Supreme King-experience and for Darkness, Truemen reminding me of that guy from the Matrix, and Fujiwara-though even that season was reviving a plot point half forgotten from the early part of season 1. Even if the Synchro arc of Arc-V dragged a little too long, I don't feel like it ever was lost storywise. Meandering but never lost.

Dark-Shimy
29th January 2017, 04:23 AM
Hello guys.

I'm opening this thread to discuss. With Arc-V coming to an end, it's time to settle down some stuff. While I was reading some Arc-V thread in Neo Arl Cradle, I've seen many posts that vomit hates about the show and some of his arcs and how "it was better in Standard Arc" but yet, those same people still watching Arc-V. And their justifaction is just laughable :



News flash, it's never to late to stop watching something you despise.



Personnally, I want don't think Arc-V is the worst Yu-Gi-Oh! spin-off. To me, GX and his plot that is essentially made of pointless fillers and don't make any sense (the so loved Supreme King was never introduce before season 3. It just comes out of nowhere. Zero foreshadowing. We can criticize Zarc all we want, but it was there since the beginning of the show). Yes the Synchro Arc feel like a complete different show since it have his own plot (that takes out Arc-V's main plot btw) and was way too long. Yes the Fusion Arc fillers were horrible (except BB, but I'll discuss about that matter after). Yes Xyz Arc was rush.

But guess what, that's how it works when the staff change from an episode to another and when you hired people that can't handle long-running shows (and people that hate writing duels.... for a show that is centered around duels.) like Arc-V. All the other Yu-Gi-Oh! series suffers from that.


Now I'm going to talk about the immense amouth of undeserve hates both Zarc and BB gets. Maybe you wonder why the hate ? Here is the reason:



May I remind you that DM got a WHOLE FILLER SEASON that added nothing to the main plot (Virtual World arc at least had the decensy to flesh out the Big 5 and, more importantly, both Mokuba's and Kaiba's characters) ? Remember GX that can be resume as "Filler the Anime" ?

Battle Beast, in the contrary of Siegfried Shroeder, makes Yuya questioning himself, reminding him how much he had evolved since the beginning of the show. Battle Beast served as a foreshadowing of what Yuya will be when Zarc will take over. Yes, the BB arc wasn't actually a filler and serve the main plot.

Now speaking of Zarc. People criticize him for being a boring villain that is just irrational destruction.... Did you actually watch and understand Arc-V ? Zarc is supposed to be irrational destruction incarnate ! He supposed to represente humanity's inner sadism and lust for power. The diametrical opposite of what Yuya is (as a reminder, Yuya want to make people smile through his peaceful dueling and don't care bout losing or winning. All that counts is to pull off a good show. Zarc is winning at all cost, even brutally assaulting to the point of blood spilling his opponents). If you have failed to notice this, please re-watch Arc-V and understand the meaning of the show. Zarc isn't as bland as Don Thousand is, and the Haokenryu version of the Heavenly Dragons aren't as ridiculously OP as C1000 (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Number_C1000:_Numeronius) or iC1000 (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Number_iC1000%3A_Numeronius_Numeronia). Zarc himself is OP ? Yeah, because Zorc, Darkness, Z-ONE and Don Thousand are fair and balanced. Zarc is Arc-V final boss, of course he will be OP.


Arc-V have indeed poor pacing and imperfect writing. He is also the show that handle villains that isn't Yuri/Roger/Sergey very poorly. Academia was the least threatening and competent villain organization in YGO history (with the exception of Yuri and Herr Doktor). It is also "Potential waste the Anime".

Also, people rejoice of the last 8 episode being centere around another Junior Championship. And yet the same people despise Synchro Arc for having another tournament. It's truely time to knows what you want guys. Personnaly, screw Junior Championship 2.0. I want explanation about Zarc, Yuya's pendant and the Pendulum Summon. Finishing Arc-V with another Junior Championship is just lazy writing.... IMHO

No YGO shows were perfect. None should be.

But you, what do you think about Arc-V ? Why do you still watch it ?

I enjoyed DM. I liked 5D's through I think it needed a third season, again based on ancient South American things (a good idea is having a season based on the 5D's manga). And I didn't like too much ZEXAL. I like ARC-V because it has a good story, but I think it needs a bit more. I loved GX, even after having many filler characters, episodes and duels, probably because I identify myself with Judai, since I do love the card game just like him but think I need that change of mind Judai had after being fused with Yubel.

On topic, I like Zarc as a villain since it's the first last villain that the main hero of the series is part of him. I like that Yu-Gi-Oh! gives a moment in any of it's series where the hero falls into darkness and becomes evil. I liked Yami Yugi playing the Seal of Orichalcos, I loved the Supreme King Judai, and Dark ZEXAL was a bit random. (I don't know if Z-One should be counted, since it is known he wasn't Yusei, he took Yusei's appearance and is, phisically, Yusei going on the evil way.) But if Zarc ends with Reiji, it will be a disappointment. I do believe there will be a Zarc vs Yuya, althought, just like I said, it's hard because Yuya is part of Zarc. But Zarc can't end with Reiji, it needs like 4 o 5 more episodes. ARC-V is a good series, probably the second or third best series.

Keikaku
29th January 2017, 05:27 AM
I keep watching Arc-V because I promised myself I'd see it through regardless of how bad it gets, and out of sheer curiosity about how it progresses.

As for the whole BB and Zarc thing, let me try to elaborate my issues with both:

1.) BB: The show had already delayed the main plot quite a bit thanks to the Synchro arc, and had rushed the Xyz arc (presumably because of the aforementioned plot-delaying), so one would think the story would go full speed ahead to the climax of the main story. Instead, what happened was that it took yet another detour in the form of the BB arc, and misrepresentation of how Glads are played in the second half of the duel aside, the BB arc contributed little to nothing in the actual story. The only notable change was Crow being carded, and he returned to duel Zarc anyway. IMO, you wouldn't miss anything by skipping the mini-arc, again except how Crow got carded (Tsukikage has pretty much been forgotten). IMO, the time taken up by BB should have instead been re-organized to be used on the bracelet girls, additional exposition on Zarc and Ray, and other major plot stuff.

Additionally, are you really telling me that after this guy carded two of his companions, Yuya just easily forgives him and doesn't even show signs of going berserk again? Maybe some of you are that forgiving and patient, but I'm certainly not. I will acknowledge though that it was interesting for Yuya to see himself in BB, and that that is a factor in his rapid forgiveness. To add to this, the splatfest near the end isn't my cup of tea, and I kinda cringed during it.

2.) Zarc: We know the basic motive behind why Zarc is the way he is, and how he got to this point, BUT that's pretty much it. Most of the info we have on him we got from Leo, and Leo hates Zarc and didn't know him personally, so his perspective gives us little insight into Zarc's character progression between injuring that first guy and the insane dude we see wrecking the stadium. We barely have any insight into Ray's character as well for similar reasons, but unlike Zarc, Leo did know her personally, so the same excuse doesn't apply. So, the end result is a power-mad dragon-human Real Solid Vision hybrid who uses a slew of busted cards that make for a completely one-sided duel against at least 9 people (Ed + Sora, Shun + Kaito, JACK + Gong, Crow + Sawatari and Leo, in that order) until Reiji steps in, and who's barely a character, and a ghost girl who has an apparent need to save the day from Zarc and who's even less of a character because we know even less about her than Zarc. Tumblr does a better job of making these two people characters I can relate to than the show itself does. I place this much emphasis on these two, because Arc-V is basically the Zarc and Ray Show; everything in the story centers around them and the consequences of their actions, so it would have helped tremendously if they did a better job with both characters up to this point.

Also, whoever designed Astrograph Sorcerer's anime version needs a lesson on how to make anime boss monsters. For the sake of duel quality, I would have greatly preferred seeing Zarc use a more comprehensive deck (maybe Magicians?), and save the really OP Supreme King stuff (including his own card) for last (by that, I mean when his other options have been legitimately exhausted).


Arc-V isn't the worst spin-off IMO, as that honour goes to ZeXal. It is (again IMO), however, the worst in terms of wasted potential.



No YGO shows were perfect. None should be.

What does this mean? It's impossible for any YGO show to be "perfect", but if it were possible, why shouldn't it be?

Dread Kaiser
29th January 2017, 05:41 AM
What does this mean? It's impossible for any YGO show to be "perfect", but if it were possible, why shouldn't it be?

Make something perfect, everything that comes after will be compared to it, and deemed a failure.


Also, whoever designed Astrograph Sorcerer's anime version needs a lesson on how to make anime boss monsters. For the sake of duel quality, I would have greatly preferred seeing Zarc use a more comprehensive deck (maybe Magicians?), and save the really OP Supreme King stuff (including his own card) for last (by that, I mean when his other options have been legitimately exhausted).

ehhh, no. summoning your super strong game breaker as soon as you can only makes sense. Zarcs entire backstory is "he was the best, like no one ever was. then Evil", so he'd know that simple logic
the alternative is a repeat of Numeronuis Numeronia, where their final boss is less a monster and more of an obstacle in a "win this turn or lose" and gets to last 1 turn as a result. Fuck Ci1000 wasn't even that subtle about it, being a literal win condition unless they could kill it in battle. why would DonK not drop that ASAP?

besides, Zarc (the monster) had just as much build-up as Zarc (the person), since they were the same damn thing, there would have been no greater waste of potential than having it summoned at the last second, then die next turn for game. everyone has been scared to death of this thing the instant they learned it existed, SHOWING THEM WHY THEY SHOULD BE AFRAID OF IT is the best possible use of it.

my complaint towards his duel is the lack of real main deck to set up that ridiculous board, but what can you do.

Keikaku
29th January 2017, 05:59 AM
ehhh, no. summoning your super strong game breaker as soon as you can only makes sense.

These duels are scripted. They didn't have to write Zarc getting Astrograph almost immediately, which allows for what I'm saying. They didn't even have to make Astrograph banish the 4 dragons from any location to Summon Zarc. If it was like its IRL version where it needed the materials in the hand or Graveyard, that would have been better for duel quality, as barring BS cards that just dump the 4 of them instantly (which I would expect in this scenario), it'd force him to use more of his Main Deck, which tends to get the shaft in duels like these. Say what you will of Darkness and Z-ONE, but at least we saw their actual decks in action, and not just a pile of 40+ forgettable cards barring a few that immediately become almost a non-factor when their big boss shows up.

I'll even add that Zarc is supposed to be the best duelist there is, but all I've been seeing is someone hiding behind broken nonsense that took them pretty much no effort to set up because of hax (Where did Astrograph come from anyway?). You could argue that as being a testament to the IRL meta, and I'm not planning to debate that, but it doesn't make for compelling anime duels (at least to me).

Dread Kaiser
29th January 2017, 06:31 AM
These duels are scripted. They didn't have to write Zarc getting Astrograph almost immediately, which allows for what I'm saying. They didn't even have to make Astrograph banish the 4 dragons from any location to Summon Zarc. If it was like its IRL version where it needed the materials in the hand or Graveyard, that would have been better for duel quality, as barring BS cards that just dump the 4 of them instantly (which I would expect in this scenario), it'd force him to use more of his Main Deck, which tends to get the shaft in duels like these. Say what you will of Darkness and Z-ONE, but at least we saw their actual decks in action, and not just a pile of 40+ forgettable cards barring a few that immediately become almost a non-factor when their big boss shows up.

I'll even add that Zarc is supposed to be the best duelist there is, but all I've been seeing is someone hiding behind broken nonsense that took them pretty much no effort to set up because of hax (Where did Astrograph come from anyway?). You could argue that as being a testament to the IRL meta, and I'm not planning to debate that, but it doesn't make for compelling anime duels (at least to me).

Astrograph was in his hand, and we've had just as bad cards IRL (Shaddoll Fusion, fuse from hand, field or deck if an easy condition is met. Eidolon summoning from hand, field or Either players Grave. ABC contact from grave, etc.)

and while it would have given some more to his main deck, if it was all to setup Astrograph, then it'd be primarily searchers of some variety or another or something that would dump all 4, like you said.

Why go through the trouble of animating and scripting that when you can get to the important part and just say it was in his hand from the start.
It's like back in Synchro!Infernity format where i'd save myself 10 minutes by telling the guy "I know your entire deck, standard netdeck, and I know this fucking launcher combo. just put the 4 Synchros on the board and set the barriers from yer deck, we know where everything ends up. I got class in 10 minutes and I'd like to not waste it watching a combo i've seen a thousand times now."

or another example, GX's Dark Guardian, can only be summoned by Dark Element, which can only be activated when Gate Guardian dies. just build it into Dark Guardians summoning Condition and save yerself a card.

besides, teh final boss is supposed to have overpowered cards, and even this is tame compared to DonK or Darkness. the only bullshit I'd honestly call is the servent dragons summoning conditions

Keikaku
29th January 2017, 07:12 AM
Astrograph was in his hand

I know.


and we've had just as bad cards IRL (Shaddoll Fusion, fuse from hand, field or deck if an easy condition is met. Eidolon summoning from hand, field or Either players Grave. ABC contact from grave, etc.)

Which of those Summons a monster that's unaffected by all the things because of its own Summoning requirement and has very few outs in the context of its universe?


and while it would have given some more to his main deck, if it was all to setup Astrograph, then it'd be primarily searchers of some variety or another or something that would dump all 4, like you said.

I'm not saying it should all be to set up for Astrograph; I'm saying it should make him play the rest of his deck without relying on Astrograph's Zarc Summon, and over the course of the game, the conditions for Astrograph are set up "naturally". IRL, that's pretty much how Zarc Magicians are played if you want to be practical.


Why go through the trouble of animating and scripting that when you can get to the important part and just say it was in his hand from the start.

Because I want to see a duel? If I wanted to watch someone drop an unbreakable board early-game and just pwn everything that tries to do something in defiance of that board, I'd watch an IRL duel, and even then, it's not at this level. Zarc didn't even take any damage until Crow (and it was only 1000), and half the time it's "My power allows me to do X, Y and Z, and you can't do A, B and C". It's almost as if he's making his effects up as he goes along.


or another example, GX's Dark Guardian, can only be summoned by Dark Element, which can only be activated when Gate Guardian dies. just build it into Dark Guardians summoning Condition and save yerself a card.

While I can agree with this, Dark Guardian is just a beater that can't be killed in battle, to which there are an uncountable number of outs. Also, Dark Element doesn't mandate that Gate Guardian has to die; it just has to be in the Graveyard, which is a vastly different situation. So the card does have its place, and at least you still have to set up a bit for it.


besides, teh final boss is supposed to have overpowered cards, and even this is tame compared to DonK or Darkness. the only bullshit I'd honestly call is the servent dragons summoning conditions

Why? The original manga actually had a sane formula: Villains like Malik, Bakura and the like have to duel to achieve their objectives, but they're limited by the confines of the game, so they can't just make **** up as far as their cards go, whereas villains like Zorc that are near-omnipotent don't even duel and just destroy the world instead (granted, it was in an RPG fueled by Atem's and Akenhaden's memories of Ancient Egypt, but the principle is what I'm aiming at). What exactly was stopping Darkness, Zarc and Donny T from just playing a Spell Card that wins the game on the spot for no rhyme or reason (This ties into my question about where Astrograph came from)? Z-ONE at least wanted his opponent to have a shot at winning (however slim that was), but what's the excuse for the others? You could argue that Zarc wants a challenge, but I find that hard to believe, when even Sawatari points out that all he's been doing was hiding behind BS like a coward.

I don't approve of decks being OP to the max for the sake of it, or just because "final villain".

Indytotof
29th January 2017, 07:37 AM
I'll even add that Zarc is supposed to be the best duelist there is, but all I've been seeing is someone hiding behind broken nonsense that took them pretty much no effort to set up because of hax (Where did Astrograph come from anyway?). You could argue that as being a testament to the IRL meta, and I'm not planning to debate that, but it doesn't make for compelling anime duels (at least to me).

Do we really need to know where Astrograph come from ? He is Zarc's trump card, his ace. It's all we need to know.

Also, that's it. Zarc IS a coward. He don't want to lose so he will do everything to prevent that, no matter what the cost is. He isn't the best duelist. The crew in the United Dimension, by wanting to see duels becoming bloodfest, make Zarc become this arrogant, self-absorbed and overconfident on his power dragon-demon thing that THINK he is the best duelist out there the Lancers tries to fight.
His deck isn't OP for the sake of it. It's OP (but not as OP as Don Thousand or Darkness) because it shows Zarc will do everything to prevent himself to lose a single duel.

Sanokal
29th January 2017, 07:44 AM
Yes, because the Winged Dragon of Ra totally didn't pull stuff out of its ass every duel. Hell, they had to break the rules of the game to kill it.

When it comes to animating and scripting, you're missing the point. It's cheaper and it saves time to take shortcuts, hence why Wild Vulture is a thing (in an episode that was rushed quickly even with that) when they could have just used Mimicry Lanius x2 and another Level 4.

- - - Updated - - -

People bitching about episode 92 always got on my nerves. Because yeah, they were really gonna bring back the Earthbound Immortals and have Yugo face Yuri NOW in a season already straining with length, way before the end of the series.

Keikaku
29th January 2017, 07:58 AM
Yes, because the Winged Dragon of Ra totally didn't pull stuff out of its ass every duel. Hell, they had to break the rules of the game to kill it.

Ra has 3 distinct effects in its Hieratic Text riddle, and while I concede that it too inched on this territory and they had to find a brain-wrenching out to it (note that I don't approve of this either), it wasn't a guaranteed death sentence for those actually prepared for it. Even Jonouchi/Joey could have won after being blasted by it (that added weight to the duel), and part of the reason for this is that Ra has a very real limitation in that its best effects are only accessible when it's Special Summoned, and it only stays on the field in that state for 1 turn. Also, it helps that it appeared in several duels, and its core effects were reused in its appearances to give the illusion that it had some semblance of actual card design behind it. The most questionable effects are the extras not even implied in the Hieratic Text, like Tributing a monster to give its ATK to Ra while the latter is already on the field.



When it comes to animating and scripting, you're missing the point. It's cheaper and it saves time to take shortcuts, hence why Wild Vulture is a thing (in an episode that was rushed quickly even with that) when they could have just used Mimicry Lanius x2 and another Level 4.


I get why these shortcuts are taken, but if we're talking about the quality of the story in and of itself, you can't just lean on that. You can like the show in spite of that, but defending it on any other basis than the writers being limited by time, money, their superiors or their own laziness is not something I'd encourage. Arc-V started strong, but for reasons not entirely known to us, it degraded over time. Not maintaining a high quality from start to finish isn't a problem unique to Arc-V, but I reckon the reason Arc-V's degradation attracted so much vitriol is because it liked to hype itself instead of being subtle or low-key, so for a number of people, certain (arguably unrealistic) expectations were made and were not met.

ScionStorm
29th January 2017, 08:12 AM
Isn't Astrograph a spirit from the Duel Monsters realm given mass and form in this world? Isn't that what Leo said he realized was happening when he was researching the Solid Vision and part of the reason Zarc went insane in the first place?

Keikaku
29th January 2017, 08:21 AM
Isn't Astrograph a spirit from the Duel Monsters realm given mass and form in this world? Isn't that what Leo said he realized was happening when he was researching the Solid Vision and part of the reason Zarc went insane in the first place?

Based on what we're told, yes.

However, Astrograph is questionable to me because his text specifically names Supreme King Dragon Zarc. Unless it's a case of some generous company making a card specifically for Zarc, or Zarc printing his own ****, that just seems very odd to me.

darkgod789
29th January 2017, 08:36 AM
At least the ending of arc v won't be as bad as the ending of bleach which was just literal BS.

Overal arc v was surprisingly alright compared to that god awful trailer (hippo riding). The story was alright and Yuuri surprised me and is better than vector.

Imagine if zarc was born in roman times since doesn't the background of zarc remind you a bit of roman coliseums where the crowd cheers for blood and stuff? While he does seem like generic bad guy number 55, at least his take on it was a bit different. Also the fact that the main protagonist is also a main antagonist in a sense was quite nice.

Leo is terrible though. Yes i know that he wanted to re-fuse the dimensions and bring back his daughter but he didn't really take any precautions into stopping zarc from reviving. It was partly if not mainly his fault that zarc was allowed to revive and encouraging the guy who closely resembles zarc is really not the best idea in the world.

Sanokal
29th January 2017, 08:53 AM
Very true, though my point is that overpowered things have been there for a long time. Heck, even Thousand-Eyes Restrict had an element of this. Though Zarc certainly takes it further (I'm surprised he actually hasn't been destroyed yet, seeing as he's a pendulum monster).

It's not encouragement, it's justification.

Indytotof
29th January 2017, 09:07 AM
RIP Zarc, Yuzu, Serena, Ruri, Rin, Yuto, Yugo and Yuri.

This episode gave us Haokenyru Starve Venom, Yuya's pendant and Pendulum Summon explaination and all the En effects (which are bloody floodgates D/D will like to abuse the shit out of. Also.... Reira WAS A GIRL (and Rey). And Yuya pulls out a card called Smile Universe that is Monster Reborn for Pendulum monsters and seems to don't give a flying fuck about summoning conditions, since it revive Haoryu Zarc.

Also, baby Ray in 141 preview... I'm currently smiling. ARC-V, don't cease to impress me. I'll give 140 a 7/10

Sanokal
29th January 2017, 09:13 AM
And that's my cue to leave for the night and wait for the subs.

Indytotof
29th January 2017, 10:47 AM
my only issue with the BB arc was BB himself
why was he a thing? Where was the Obelisk Force? I'd have rather seen more of them, along with an Obelisk Force "Captain" who could have been the walking Ancient Gear Structure Deck advertisement instead of having Yuri Switch decks

Also people need to just quit the bitching, I hated Zexal and I still watched it to the end. and no redeeming qualities my ass, everyone, EVERYONE, Loved ARC V til around Episode 55 or so. Cept Raiko, but that's another matter

Dread, never EVER go to NeoArkCradle then (except if you want to lose faith in humanity). The amounth of hate (that some people dare to describe as criticism) Arc-V gets is way too high.

Keikaku
29th January 2017, 12:22 PM
Dread, never EVER go to NeoArkCradle then (except if you want to lose faith in humanity). The amounth of hate (that some people dare to describe as criticism) Arc-V gets is way too high.

Could you give an example?

Indytotof
29th January 2017, 12:23 PM
Could you give an example?

Just read some comments on the last Arc-V episode thread. You'll find what you seek (and yes, I've acted quite childish).

Comun
29th January 2017, 03:17 PM
RIP Zarc, Yuzu, Serena, Ruri, Rin, Yuto, Yugo and Yuri.

This episode gave us Haokenyru Starve Venom, Yuya's pendant and Pendulum Summon explaination and all the En effects (which are bloody floodgates D/D will like to abuse the shit out of. Also.... Reira WAS A GIRL (and Rey). And Yuya pulls out a card called Smile Universe that is Monster Reborn for Pendulum monsters and seems to don't give a flying fuck about summoning conditions, since it revive Haoryu Zarc.

Also, baby Ray in 141 preview... I'm currently smiling. ARC-V, don't cease to impress me. I'll give 140 a 7/10

Layra is not a girl, he just said "I am Ray" because Ray was actually possessing his body.

Dread Kaiser
29th January 2017, 03:18 PM
Dread, never EVER go to NeoArkCradle then (except if you want to lose faith in humanity). The amounth of hate (that some people dare to describe as criticism) Arc-V gets is way too high.

I dont
This place and the wiki are the only places you will find me

Dread Kaiser
29th January 2017, 03:27 PM
I'll answer that wall of text after work

Dark-Shimy
29th January 2017, 05:35 PM
I do start to believe that next episode will be Yuya's dream. It just can't end like this, the final scene is looking like Layra absorbs Zarc.

Dread Kaiser
29th January 2017, 08:15 PM
I know.

yet you asked



Which of those Summons a monster that's unaffected by all the things because of its own Summoning requirement and has very few outs in the context of its universe?

I thought we were talking about the setup, not the Supposed to be OP Boss monster. To answer the question, all of the above (unless you are stupid enough to actually just play the one card). El-Shaddoll Winda is in some ways WORSE than Anime!Zarc, atleast Anime!zarc lets you summon your extra deck. Caligula does similar, locking to one monster effect and attack per turn and Merkabah is a watered down Perfect Hearld. ABC should go without saying.



I'm not saying it should all be to set up for Astrograph; I'm saying it should make him play the rest of his deck without relying on Astrograph's Zarc Summon, and over the course of the game, the conditions for Astrograph are set up "naturally". IRL, that's pretty much how Zarc Magicians are played if you want to be practical.

ya see, that's where you completely missed the point. while it would be NICE to see his deck:
A, the aformentioned magicians already exists, nothing to really debut here
B, it would drag this long ass duel on even longer with what amounts to either filler at best, or another Structure Deck Advertisement at worse.

instead they: Quickly bring Zarc to the field and show us EXACTLY what this Dragon-God monster can do and why everyone should fear it.


Because I want to see a duel? If I wanted to watch someone drop an unbreakable board early-game and just pwn everything that tries to do something in defiance of that board, I'd watch an IRL duel, and even then, it's not at this level. Zarc didn't even take any damage until Crow (and it was only 1000), and half the time it's "My power allows me to do X, Y and Z, and you can't do A, B and C". It's almost as if he's making his effects up as he goes along.

Yer watching the wrong show then, this is absolutely nothing new (Winged Dragon of Ra, Everything in GX having blanket immunity slapped onto it, Z-ONE, DonK, Darkness, and Dartz (ALLITERATION!!!) in general)
No, actually, IRL Duels are worse. at least Zarc's has lasted more than 4 turns. the life penalty has done more damage than he has, most of them would still be in the game if it wasn't for that.

and again, it would ultimately be to setup Zarc anyway. would GX's duels be better if Jaden always opened with E emergency Call instead of just drawing it? No, it would just be another 10 seconds of animation the animation team needs to go through for no real impact.

Also he probably DID make them up, Pendulums didn't exist on his first rampage, now that he suddenly has pendulum cards.

also, keep in mind that this is basically a standard Shonen action anime, just using a game as a medium instead of fighting. you can draw plenty of parallels to Dragonball to make things easier
Their cards are like their Techniques, the more powerful characters have more powerful techniques/cards, the final villains are understandably absurd. Zarc is kinda like Cell here, right down to being a composite of multiple heroes and villians, knowing their techniques and having extra OPness on top)
Heroic upgrade is them getting their ace upgraded, a new summon unlocked or in Yuma's case, literally go super saiyan.

to make the point a bit clearer, Dueling in this show is what Fighting in DBZ is


While I can agree with this, Dark Guardian is just a beater that can't be killed in battle, to which there are an uncountable number of outs. Also, Dark Element doesn't mandate that Gate Guardian has to die; it just has to be in the Graveyard, which is a vastly different situation. So the card does have its place, and at least you still have to set up a bit for it.

once again, point missed. that was an example of what NOT to do, form the perspective of animators and guys writing the duel scripts "Dark element" was a complete waste that had no reason to exist. (and yes, Element just needed Guardian in the grave, we both know they aren't just going to use foolish burial, they are going to summon it. for plot reasons, yes, it had to die first)


Why? The original manga actually had a sane formula: Villains like Malik, Bakura and the like have to duel to achieve their objectives, but they're limited by the confines of the game, so they can't just make **** up as far as their cards go, whereas villains like Zorc that are near-omnipotent don't even duel and just destroy the world instead (granted, it was in an RPG fueled by Atem's and Akenhaden's memories of Ancient Egypt, but the principle is what I'm aiming at). What exactly was stopping Darkness, Zarc and Donny T from just playing a Spell Card that wins the game on the spot for no rhyme or reason (This ties into my question about where Astrograph came from)? Z-ONE at least wanted his opponent to have a shot at winning (however slim that was), but what's the excuse for the others? You could argue that Zarc wants a challenge, but I find that hard to believe, when even Sawatari points out that all he's been doing was hiding behind BS like a coward.

This isn't the original Manga, and the setup is completely different.
DM had those villains in tournaments, they were just participants at the end of the day, so yes they had to duel until they got to Yugi (to the finals for Marik, just the top 8 for Bakura), Yami Marik didn't even need to duel Yugi, just stab him. but he liked torturing people with Ra too much. by the time Zorc was around, Duel Monsters (the game, not the actual monsters) was no longer relevant to the plot, of course he wasn't dueling.

as for what stopped Darkness. Nothing. He won. he sent everyone but Jaden to the World of Darkness, the only reason he didn't do the same to jaden was because he viewed him as a "foreign object" to be removed, and as I mentioned "card games = Fighting", you can't do anything to someone in this universe without beating them in a game first. What stopped them for a one card victory condition? aside from plot, They simply couldn't do that.

also if they COULD just play a spell that deals 4K, then the Heroes can just have a hand trap that negates damage and make it pointless. so you either get a downer ending or a waste of a card or 2 for no real reason.
if they had a literal "I Win" card that couldn't be countered, it would break suspension of disbelief and having Viewers screaming "Why does this exist and how do these writers have a job?" or in DonK's case "How was he beaten and sealed to begin with then?" or in Dartz, Darkness or whoever else is ancient "Why didn't they just win 10,000 Years or whatever ago"

and again, the Duels are Fights. between monsters, the Monsters almost invariably do the actual heavy lifting in the duel. the Aces represent the person that plays them, beating their Ace is beating their owner

As for Zarc, he doesn't want a Challenge, he wants to PROVE he is the best, by beating (And Killing) everyone who dares to duel him. ditto with the other villains, they usually had a point they wanted to prove, which involves winning a card game first. ZONE, that Yusei couldn't save the future and his plan was the only way, Darkness that Jaden didn't belong and needed to be removed. I think DonK was the only one without a reason, I think he was just toying with Shark and Yuma, but I'm probably wrong and just don't remember on that point.


I don't approve of decks being OP to the max for the sake of it, or just because "final villain".

once again, watching the wrong show then.

seems like you are looking for reasons in all the wrong places

Looking for a realistic Duel here is like looking for Realistic Martial Arts in DragonBall Z

even then, this is more of a duel than the other final bosses save Zone and Rex.
DonK just sat on Numeronius most of the game, Ci1000 was more of an obstacle than a monster
Darkness sat on his field spell, which instantly set up his whole strategy, and those 5 traps the whole game, from start to end.


Ra has 3 distinct effects in its Hieratic Text riddle, and while I concede that it too inched on this territory and they had to find a brain-wrenching out to it (note that I don't approve of this either), it wasn't a guaranteed death sentence for those actually prepared for it. Even Jonouchi/Joey could have won after being blasted by it (that added weight to the duel), and part of the reason for this is that Ra has a very real limitation in that its best effects are only accessible when it's Special Summoned, and it only stays on the field in that state for 1 turn. Also, it helps that it appeared in several duels, and its core effects were reused in its appearances to give the illusion that it had some semblance of actual card design behind it. The most questionable effects are the extras not even implied in the Hieratic Text, like Tributing a monster to give its ATK to Ra while the latter is already on the field.

Actually, yes it was. Anime!Ra was unstoppable.
if it was in the grave, you had a revival card and your Life+Total ATK of all monster you controlled were higher than your opponents Life, you won. Ra would then Attack all monsters your opponent controlled, with complete immunity and an effect explictly saying "This cards Attack cannot be stopped or prevented" and would then Attack the opponent Directly.


the effect was called "One Turn Kill" for a reason
it's how he beat Yami Bakura
VS Joey, he didn't meet those conditions, his life was too low to beat Gilford and didn't have monsters to boost it. so he used the other effect to destroy Gilford without battling it, hopign it would kill Joey in the process via shadow game. it almost did.
VS Yami Yugi, he DID meet those conditions....then Magical dimension happened



I get why these shortcuts are taken, but if we're talking about the quality of the story in and of itself, you can't just lean on that. You can like the show in spite of that, but defending it on any other basis than the writers being limited by time, money, their superiors or their own laziness is not something I'd encourage. Arc-V started strong, but for reasons not entirely known to us, it degraded over time. Not maintaining a high quality from start to finish isn't a problem unique to Arc-V, but I reckon the reason Arc-V's degradation attracted so much vitriol is because it liked to hype itself instead of being subtle or low-key, so for a number of people, certain (arguably unrealistic) expectations were made and were not met.


I thought we were talking about the duel scripting, which is not the story in and of itself and you can very much lean on it.

LolsterXD97
29th January 2017, 08:36 PM
Also he probably DID make them up, Pendulums didn't exist on his first rampage, now that he suddenly has pendulum cards.

Confirmed in episode 140, he was the founder of Pendulum Summon and the one who made Yuya zone out in episode 1.

Keikaku
30th January 2017, 12:52 AM
yet you asked

I did say that it didn't have to be written that way, but you used an in-story reason as to why it happened. What I was trying to say was that I preferred that Astrograph didn't show up so soon, and was written a bit differently to not come out in the very first anti-Zarc wave.



I thought we were talking about the setup, not the Supposed to be OP Boss monster. To answer the question, all of the above (unless you are stupid enough to actually just play the one card). El-Shaddoll Winda is in some ways WORSE than Anime!Zarc, atleast Anime!zarc lets you summon your extra deck. Caligula does similar, locking to one monster effect and attack per turn and Merkabah is a watered down Perfect Hearld. ABC should go without saying.

On the other hand, there are decks that Shaddolls and Eidolons/Invoked fold to or can be beaten by, because their monsters aren't unbeatable (which Zarc and his Supreme King Servants virtually are). They literally needed the 4 En cards to actually beat his ***, and Reiji needed his 3 Executive D/D/Ds to put more than just a scratch on him. I do believe that if Shaddolls were used in the anime, they'd be easier for a number of these characters to handle than Zarc's everything, because you could more easily invent cards to get around them, but since we're just comparing IRL OP stuff with the anime OP stuff, I guess this isn't relevant.



ya see, that's where you completely missed the point. while it would be NICE to see his deck:
A, the aformentioned magicians already exists, nothing to really debut here
B, it would drag this long ass duel on even longer with what amounts to either filler at best, or another Structure Deck Advertisement at worse.

instead they: Quickly bring Zarc to the field and show us EXACTLY what this Dragon-God monster can do and why everyone should fear it.

I understand your point here, but I personally actually like longer duels (provided they're entertaining), and there's kind of suspense to delaying an ultimate boss monster's appearance. I get that not everyone favours that.




Yer watching the wrong show then, this is absolutely nothing new (Winged Dragon of Ra, Everything in GX having blanket immunity slapped onto it, Z-ONE, DonK, Darkness, and Dartz (ALLITERATION!!!) in general)
No, actually, IRL Duels are worse. at least Zarc's has lasted more than 4 turns. the life penalty has done more damage than he has, most of them would still be in the game if it wasn't for that.

and again, it would ultimately be to setup Zarc anyway. would GX's duels be better if Jaden always opened with E emergency Call instead of just drawing it? No, it would just be another 10 seconds of animation the animation team needs to go through for no real impact.

Also he probably DID make them up, Pendulums didn't exist on his first rampage, now that he suddenly has pendulum cards.

also, keep in mind that this is basically a standard Shonen action anime, just using a game as a medium instead of fighting. you can draw plenty of parallels to Dragonball to make things easier
Their cards are like their Techniques, the more powerful characters have more powerful techniques/cards, the final villains are understandably absurd. Zarc is kinda like Cell here, right down to being a composite of multiple heroes and villians, knowing their techniques and having extra OPness on top)
Heroic upgrade is them getting their ace upgraded, a new summon unlocked or in Yuma's case, literally go super saiyan.

to make the point a bit clearer, Dueling in this show is what Fighting in DBZ is

So, in summary, you're saying that I should look at the players' decks as just stacks of fighting techniques, and the players themselves as DBZ-like shonen-style fighters?

While I admit that this is an interesting (and even accurate) way to look at it, is a card game anime is the best medium for this? What makes a card game anime like YGO different from an anime like DBZ is that the characters use cards in a pre-defined trading card game to settle their issues; I find something off about trying to make something like this similar to something like DBZ when they're different beasts. To try to give an analogy for what I'm getting at, it's like having a shonen Chess anime, and the final boss and main protagonist invent new pieces on the spot, or gives their pieces powers they shouldn't have had before, because they can.

It takes a kind of creative genius to take a trading card game, keep yourself within the rules, established card pool and limitations of that game, and make said game a medium for a shonen-style plot.

And yes, OP bosses are nothing new, but to give credit where credit is due, the original manga wasn't as blatant about it IMO. The DM anime though, well Ra aside, the Orichalcos arc was chock full of that, and the Noah arc had some pretty OP Deck Masters.


once again, point missed. that was an example of what NOT to do, form the perspective of animators and guys writing the duel scripts "Dark element" was a complete waste that had no reason to exist. (and yes, Element just needed Guardian in the grave, we both know they aren't just going to use foolish burial, they are going to summon it. for plot reasons, yes, it had to die first)

I see your point now, but you did raise another one; why don't characters use cards like Foolish Burial more often? We see the occasional Monster Reborn and such, but why do they use more situational cards instead of pre-existing less-situational cards that perform similar (and sometimes, the exact same) function? I'm pretty sure a simple MST would have solved a ton of problems in a number of anime situations, but I suppose that's a testament to MST being too strong of a card design-wise.




aside from plot, They simply couldn't do that.

Is there some invisible in-universe limitation on this? Do their cards just reflect their power, so they have no choice in what cards they manage to spawn in their deck?


if they had a literal "I Win" card that couldn't be countered, it would break suspension of disbelief and having Viewers screaming "Why does this exist and how do these writers have a job?" or in DonK's case "How was he beaten and sealed to begin with then?" or in Dartz, Darkness or whoever else is ancient "Why didn't they just win 10,000 Years or whatever ago"

I'd argue that suspension of disbelief is difficult to maintain with a card game anime the likes of YGO as it is, since these guys who can destroy worlds with their non-dueling powers need a card game to prevail, and the only way to defeat these guys in some cases is through said card game. Zarc is a case of the latter, since no-one there (not even Ray) had any chance at killing him physically. I understand that literal auto-win cards would be unacceptable, but the point I was making here is that perhaps they should save the cards for much less powerful duelists who are too limited to defeat their enemy by just blasting them, and if you have to have villains on par with Darkness/Z-ONE/Donny T/Zarc, have them be an entity that doesn't duel and can be defeated by non-duel means.



As for Zarc, he doesn't want a Challenge, he wants to PROVE he is the best, by beating (And Killing) everyone who dares to duel him. ditto with the other villains, they usually had a point they wanted to prove, which involves winning a card game first. ZONE, that Yusei couldn't save the future and his plan was the only way, Darkness that Jaden didn't belong and needed to be removed. I think DonK was the only one without a reason, I think he was just toying with Shark and Yuma, but I'm probably wrong and just don't remember on that point.

Exactly, he didn't want a challenge, and that's why I asked why he didn't just go the theoretically easy route and create an auto-win card against his challengers. If it's a case of pride, then that would add to his character, but that would be encroaching on conjecture territory. If it's a limitation of the system or his abilities to create such cards, that's another explanation I'd accept, but we didn't explicitly get that either.

As for Donny T, he dueled Nasch with the intention of absorbing him, just as he did with Mizael. Given that he tried to OTK them with Numbers 1-4 and then C1, he clearly wasn't fooling around.




once again, watching the wrong show then.

seems like you are looking for reasons in all the wrong places

Looking for a realistic Duel here is like looking for Realistic Martial Arts in DragonBall Z

I suppose you're right that the YGO anime isn't my kind of card game anime, but I do like the idea of the genre, it's one of the few out there that I know of, and I grew up with it so there's a bit of an attachment there. Make no mistake, I don't hate YGO, and whatever you may think from my posts here, I've seen plenty of positives in it, but I'm just airing out my concerns here.



Actually, yes it was. Anime!Ra was unstoppable.
if it was in the grave, you had a revival card and your Life+Total ATK of all monster you controlled were higher than your opponents Life, you won. Ra would then Attack all monsters your opponent controlled, with complete immunity and an effect explictly saying "This cards Attack cannot be stopped or prevented" and would then Attack the opponent Directly.


the effect was called "One Turn Kill" for a reason
it's how he beat Yami Bakura
VS Joey, he didn't meet those conditions, his life was too low to beat Gilford and didn't have monsters to boost it. so he used the other effect to destroy Gilford without battling it, hopign it would kill Joey in the process via shadow game. it almost did.
VS Yami Yugi, he DID meet those conditions....then Magical dimension happened

True, but to be fair, Yami Yugi, Mai and Bakura all tried to stop Malik from ever bringing out Ra in the first place by stealing Monster Reborn or stealing Ra itself; they all failed, but they at least tried. As you pointed out, another option is to bring Malik's LP and total monster ATK low enough for Ra's OTK mode to be a non-threat, as what happened with Joey.

I say this bit to say that my complaint about Astrograph would have been less if the characters were informed about him, and tried to stop it before it started (and inevitably fail), or alternatively, the duel restarts at one point or another (instead of being a continuous jobber fest) and the new challengers (no pun intended) tried to stop Astrograph. The 2000 LP penalty is another concern I have, but that's another tangent.



I thought we were talking about the duel scripting, which is not the story in and of itself and you can very much lean on it.

To try to make my point clearer, we can speculate how Arc-V would have turned out if those factors weren't in place, but in the end, Arc-V turned out the way it did (for better or worse, and I'm leaning on worse), and it doesn't make sense to me to defend it (or aspects of it) as being "good" or however else you want to describe it just because its writing staff had IRL problems to deal with, and every YGO anime suffers from this issue in one way or another. 5Ds had to deal with a slew of issues ranging from executive meddling to Carly's VA allegedly being in a cult to the Bonds Beyond Time movie taking time away from the pre-WRGP arc; I still think that it started out decently, degraded quite a bit, and upped its quality near the end.

Dread Kaiser
30th January 2017, 02:14 AM
I did say that it didn't have to be written that way, but you used an in-story reason as to why it happened. What I was trying to say was that I preferred that Astrograph didn't show up so soon, and was written a bit differently to not come out in the very first anti-Zarc wave.

then the resulting question would be "why is everyone not joining in the duel before he gets a turn and dog piling him with effect damage or something" since that tactic HAS been demonstrated.
witht he way Zarc's duel is unfolding, its not "he is final boss, therefore OP lockdowns"
its actually "he's the final boss, anyone can join a duel whenever, he NEEDS these bullshit effects or he'd have already lost due to it being 10 V 1 and he only has so many cards"



On the other hand, there are decks that Shaddolls and Eidolons/Invoked fold to or can be beaten by, because their monsters aren't unbeatable (which Zarc and his Supreme King Servants virtually are). They literally needed the 4 En cards to actually beat his ***, and Reiji needed his 3 Executive D/D/Ds to put more than just a scratch on him. I do believe that if Shaddolls were used in the anime, they'd be easier for a number of these characters to handle than Zarc's everything, because you could more easily invent cards to get around them, but since we're just comparing IRL OP stuff with the anime OP stuff, I guess this isn't relevant.

its not, my original point was "summoning boss monster with no setup is nothing new"



I understand your point here, but I personally actually like longer duels (provided they're entertaining), and there's kind of suspense to delaying an ultimate boss monster's appearance. I get that not everyone favours that.

thing is, it'd have to basically be done with a 1 card setup like you said, going into Dark Element "why does this exist"
or the above "why are they not teaming up on him" will eventually happen


So, in summary, you're saying that I should look at the players' decks as just stacks of fighting techniques, and the players themselves as DBZ-like shonen-style fighters?

While I admit that this is an interesting (and even accurate) way to look at it, is a card game anime is the best medium for this? What makes a card game anime like YGO different from an anime like DBZ is that the characters use cards in a pre-defined trading card game to settle their issues; I find something off about trying to make something like this similar to something like DBZ when they're different beasts. To try to give an analogy for what I'm getting at, it's like having a shonen Chess anime, and the final boss and main protagonist invent new pieces on the spot, or gives their pieces powers they shouldn't have had before, because they can.

It takes a kind of creative genius to take a trading card game, keep yourself within the rules, established card pool and limitations of that game, and make said game a medium for a shonen-style plot.

And yes, OP bosses are nothing new, but to give credit where credit is due, the original manga wasn't as blatant about it IMO. The DM anime though, well Ra aside, the Orichalcos arc was chock full of that, and the Noah arc had some pretty OP Deck Masters.

basically. the entire manga came about my Takahashi wanting a action manga, but didn't want a fighting genre, it was over-saturated at the time. so Games became the medium for all conflict to be settled by. then Duel Monsters was introduced, turned out to be popular so he rewrote the plot and it became the standard.

and that's the thing, the characters DO make new cards on the spot (say it with me: SHINING DRAW!) much in the same way a DBZ Character reveals a new technique they made off screen (Goku: Hey BTW I found Super Saiyan 3 during the time skip).
Their deck is their technique list (And suddenly Yuya having Phantom Knights when Yuto takes over is less mysterious, despite his deck being left behind in Standard)
Their ability to asspu- Draw what they want, when they want, is an ability that can be trained (GX and Zexal both had such "Training Segments", that Tarzan guy from GX had this as his whole shtick. "I practiced drawing so much, I can give RNGesus the finger and draw what I want")

BTW, Instant win conditions are basically the equivlent of the bad guy about to blow up the planet, stop him NOW or you lose.

they ARE limited the to rules of the game, to some extent. but plenty of cards break them on a regular basis. Divine Serpent Geh and Infernity Zero (I can't lose while its here), Cursed Twin Dolls Destroying the Graveyard, Shining Draw in general.


I see your point now, but you did raise another one; why don't characters use cards like Foolish Burial more often? We see the occasional Monster Reborn and such, but why do they use more situational cards instead of pre-existing less-situational cards that perform similar (and sometimes, the exact same) function? I'm pretty sure a simple MST would have solved a ton of problems in a number of anime situations, but I suppose that's a testament to MST being too strong of a card design-wise.

because we would get sick of......let me put it this way

WHAT DOES POT OF GREED DO?!



Is there some invisible in-universe limitation on this? Do their cards just reflect their power, so they have no choice in what cards they manage to spawn in their deck?

In universe? yes and no. there is no in-universe reason someone couldn't shining draw a "You win the duel, your opponent cannot respond to this effect" as a spell. but the "instant defeat" thing you are thinking of is already here. the FTK. whenever they want to make it clear that Character A has no chance at beating Character B, they have Character B OTK or FTK him. Mizael VS DonK, Rex N Weevil VS Siegfried

actually Ride of teh Valkyrie is an excellent example to draw another parallel with. anyone strong enough to fight this character is good enough to survive this card being played. if they do, we get a duel(read: fight continues), if not, FTK (read: someone was one-punched)

Out of Universe? yes, it be the equivelent of pulling a gun and shooting the other player. makes for pretty shitty story telling


I'd argue that suspension of disbelief is difficult to maintain with a card game anime the likes of YGO as it is, since these guys who can destroy worlds with their non-dueling powers need a card game to prevail, and the only way to defeat these guys in some cases is through said card game. Zarc is a case of the latter, since no-one there (not even Ray) had any chance at killing him physically. I understand that literal auto-win cards would be unacceptable, but the point I was making here is that perhaps they should save the cards for much less powerful duelists who are too limited to defeat their enemy by just blasting them, and if you have to have villains on par with Darkness/Z-ONE/Donny T/Zarc, have them be an entity that doesn't duel and can be defeated by non-duel means.

fighting via card games is the premise of the show, yes its silly when you think about it. and if you can't accept it, you can't enjoy the show.
then again, I can look at baseball and think "these guys are being paid millions to hit a ball with a stick, then run a lap?"

I don't see why sports are a big deal for everyone oddly enough

sometimes, its better to not think that far into it.


Exactly, he didn't want a challenge, and that's why I asked why he didn't just go the theoretically easy route and create an auto-win card against his challengers. If it's a case of pride, then that would add to his character, but that would be encroaching on conjecture territory. If it's a limitation of the system or his abilities to create such cards, that's another explanation I'd accept, but we didn't explicitly get that either.

As for Donny T, he dueled Nasch with the intention of absorbing him, just as he did with Mizael. Given that he tried to OTK them with Numbers 1-4 and then C1, he clearly wasn't fooling around.

Because, as said, he simply can't play a literal "I win" card. using the DBZ logic again, there is no such thing as a unstoppable OHK ATK, so a card version of it wouldn't exist either. there could be a card version of a Really fucking big attack that COULD OHK someone, and there is, see above.

right, absorbing the emperors, forgot. was forced to watch those Episodes Raw.



I suppose you're right that the YGO anime isn't my kind of card game anime, but I do like the idea of the genre, it's one of the few out there that I know of, and I grew up with it so there's a bit of an attachment there. Make no mistake, I don't hate YGO, and whatever you may think from my posts here, I've seen plenty of positives in it, but I'm just airing out my concerns here.

k


True, but to be fair, Yami Yugi, Mai and Bakura all tried to stop Malik from ever bringing out Ra in the first place by stealing Monster Reborn or stealing Ra itself; they all failed, but they at least tried. As you pointed out, another option is to bring Malik's LP and total monster ATK low enough for Ra's OTK mode to be a non-threat, as what happened with Joey.

I say this bit to say that my complaint about Astrograph would have been less if the characters were informed about him, and tried to stop it before it started (and inevitably fail), or alternatively, the duel restarts at one point or another (instead of being a continuous jobber fest) and the new challengers (no pun intended) tried to stop Astrograph. The 2000 LP penalty is another concern I have, but that's another tangent.

Then you'd have to explain how the fuck they even knew it existed, much less what it does or how to be prepared for it.
Reiji: "Your deck has existed for all of 10 minutes and the only other time anyone has ever seen that card, it was in another dimension before I was even born. But I already know what it is, how it works and already got my sides ready"

That'd be horribly writing too.

as to why they don't simply let the duel end and start a fresh one? that would be losing the fight and he'd presumably kill them, not to mention would kill the drama. If they really wanted to, they could just pull a Sans and never end their turn. that big ass dragon can't go ripping other worlds a new one if it's stuck here in a card game


To try to make my point clearer, we can speculate how Arc-V would have turned out if those factors weren't in place, but in the end, Arc-V turned out the way it did (for better or worse, and I'm leaning on worse), and it doesn't make sense to me to defend it (or aspects of it) as being "good" or however else you want to describe it just because its writing staff had IRL problems to deal with, and every YGO anime suffers from this issue in one way or another. 5Ds had to deal with a slew of issues ranging from executive meddling to Carly's VA allegedly being in a cult to the Bonds Beyond Time movie taking time away from the pre-WRGP arc; I still think that it started out decently, degraded quite a bit, and upped its quality near the end.

and I'm just telling you why some of your points don't make sense

Keikaku
30th January 2017, 02:33 AM
and I'm just telling you why some of your points don't make sense

Some? I was starting to get the impression that none of them did.

This conversation actually went on longer than I first intended, so I'll just say that I overall concede, but we can agree to disagree on certain things.