PDA

View Full Version : Normal Monsters and Max ATK/DEF



SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 08:51 PM
So, right now, the max ATK for a level 4 or lower Normal Monster is 2000, 2100 DEF for the max, while level 5/6 is up to 2600 ATK/3000 DEF, and no level 7 or higher Normal monster exceeds 2900, besides Blue-Eyes White Dragon. I find that strange, since Dark Magician was meant to be the "ultimate power in ATK and DEF" for its level, but it doesn't come close to cards like Gogiga Gagagigo and Spiral Serpent, and even Summoned Skull is now usurped by Trance and Frostosaurus, but there seems to be a hard limit against any card even matching BEWD in terms of ATK. Why is that? And will Konami push the boundaries for the ATK/DEF of the lower level Normal Monsters again?

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 08:52 PM
Rabidragon has 2950 ATK.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 08:56 PM
Also, you have cards like Emperor Sem (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor_Sem), Gear Golem the Moving Fortress (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Gear_Golem_the_Moving_Fortress) and Super Conductor Tyranno (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Conductor_Tyranno) thta exceed those limits and whose effects are not prejudicial.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 09:01 PM
Also, if you have any doubts concerning these rules or limitations, check this (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_3000_ATK_and_DEF) and this (http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Level_4_ATK_and_DEF_Rules).

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 09:11 PM
Not only are you taking Flavor text too seriously, you misread it. it was:



The ultimate wizard in terms of attack and defense.




Not sure where you got "best Lv7" from

That is to say, it was the strongest Spellcaster, not strongest monster (that was Blue-eyes from the start). Which was true at the time, then Cosmo Queen, Magician of black chaos and the like were made.
similar thing happened to E HERO Bustrinitrix, who claimed it was the only female HERO, also true at the time. then Lady Heat and Poison rose became things.

I highly doubt they will ever make a vanilla that tops 3K...or one that matches 3K, for the simple reason of keeping the Blue-eyes the reigning king of that category and having the most Iconic monster in the game retain some form of value.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 09:14 PM
Blue-Eyes deserves the spot for the most powerful vanilla. I hope they never change that.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 09:15 PM
Yeah, but why haven't we gotten a Normal Monster that matches BEWD's 3000 ATK? And why haven't any level 4 or lower Normal Monsters exceeded 2100 DEF? It's always the effect monsters that do that.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 09:19 PM
Yeah, but why haven't we gotten a Normal Monster that matches BEWD's 3000 ATK? And why haven't any level 4 or lower Normal Monsters exceeded 2100 DEF? It's always the effect monsters that do that.

because that level of power for a normal summon requires drawbacks, and Normal Monsters don't really have those
You won't find a lv4 with that power and no drawbacks

as for why, because Konami made it that way.

you may as well ask "Why do the protag monsters always have 25/20". its the way it is

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 09:22 PM
I think he's asking why Super Conductor Tyranno has 3000+ ATK and no drawbacks, for instance.

Sanokal
25th November 2015, 09:35 PM
I think he's asking why Super Conductor Tyranno has 3000+ ATK and no drawbacks, for instance.

Because it's a dinosaur. No questions required!

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 09:41 PM
Because it's a dinosaur. No questions required!

An electrifying one!
SCT is awesome, we all know that.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 09:42 PM
No, I'm asking why such limits on the Normal monsters exist. I mean, okay, sure, Normal Monsters with 2000+ can get crazy, but we already have four of those, and Konami still insists on making 2000 or less ATK Effect monsters with negative effects. It's like, what's the point, anymore? And I'm sorry, but with cards like Rabidragon and Gogiga Gagagigo and the like coming close to matching BEWD's stats, what's the point in keeping it the ONLY NORMAL MONSTER with 3000 ATK? BEWD hasn't been relevant in forver, so why not usurp its throne, already?

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 09:46 PM
what's the point in keeping it the ONLY NORMAL MONSTER with 3000 ATK? BEWD hasn't been relevant in forver, so why not usurp its throne, already?
Because it's one of the most (if not the most) iconic and recognizable monsters in the game. He is most likely never going to have his "throne" usurped.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 09:48 PM
No, I'm asking why such limits on the Normal monsters exist. I mean, okay, sure, Normal Monsters with 2000+ can get crazy, but we already have four of those, and Konami still insists on making 2000 or less ATK Effect monsters with negative effects. It's like, what's the point, anymore? And I'm sorry, but with cards like Rabidragon and Gogiga Gagagigo and the like coming close to matching BEWD's stats, what's the point in keeping it the ONLY NORMAL MONSTER with 3000 ATK? BEWD hasn't been relevant in forver, so why not usurp its throne, already?

I don't care if BEWD is relevant or not. BEWD is an iconic card. It holds the record for the Normal Monster with the highest ATK for more than 10 years and I like it that way. It shows Kaiba's hegemony.
And I like the fact Konami has this limitations to Normal Monsters. We need to have a bar limiting the ATK/DEF, so, if we're always raising it with time, there's no point in having one.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 09:55 PM
I disagree; they already raised the limits for level 4 Normal Monsters, first with 1900 ATK, then with 2000 ATK, then they upped the limit for 1-tribute Normal Monsters to 2600 ATK. Obviously they're going to try to raise the bar again, sometime in the future. Why not do so with the 2-tribute monsters? I'm sorry, but fuck the iconicity of BEWD; Dark Magician, Summoned Skull, and REBD are also iconic, and even with their new support, they're highly outclassed by the more recent Normal monsters that Konami pushed the envelope with. I'd much rather use Trance than the first two and Rabidragon than the latter, for instance. BEWD needs to be dethroned, I don't care what anyone says. They need to make a 3100 Normal Monster that can beat BEWD, period.

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 09:57 PM
Wow.......

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 09:59 PM
Hey, I know it's an unpopular opinion, but it's honestly what I think; they need to continue to push the envelope with Normal Monsters, stat-wise, and as a result, stop making Effect Monsters with similar stats that have negative effects. The latter is pointless with the former, and we all know the former's going to continue, eventually, so why not embrace it?

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:01 PM
Because it's never going to happen.
Edit: Logically speaking of course.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:01 PM
I disagree; they already raised the limits for level 4 Normal Monsters, first with 1900 ATK, then with 2000 ATK, then they upped the limit for 1-tribute Normal Monsters to 2600 ATK. Obviously they're going to try to raise the bar again, sometime in the future. Why not do so with the 2-tribute monsters? I'm sorry, but fuck the iconicity of BEWD; Dark Magician, Summoned Skull, and REBD are also iconic, and even with their new support, they're highly outclassed by the more recent Normal monsters that Konami pushed the envelope with. I'd much rather use Trance than the first two and Rabidragon than the latter, for instance. BEWD needs to be dethroned, I don't care what anyone says. They need to make a 3100 Normal Monster that can beat BEWD, period.

No, BEWD was released as a Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters' card in 1999. Dark Magician is iconic too, but in a different way than Blue-Eyes. Maybe they'll keep raising the bar for 1-tribute monsters, but very slowly. But I doubt (and hope) they never raise the bar Blue-Eyes has imposed 16 years ago. BWED is the supreme vanilla monster. Like Kaiba was the headmaster of the biggest company (Kaiba Corp was bigger than Industrial Illusions, right?). Anyway, BEWD represents way more than just a strong Normal Monster. Hence why I think it shouldn't be dethroned.
And why do you want a stronger vanilla monster so much?

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:05 PM
Because with the advent of the Normal Pendulums, Normal Monsters are in a prime position of becoming a lot stronger with new support. They need to get stronger to survive the current metagame, and I really like that idea.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:07 PM
But they can get that boost from Normal Pendulum monsters' Pendulum Effects. ATK is not everything.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:08 PM
Considering that, without those pendulum effects, all they have going for them IS ATK, yeah, it kinda is.

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:11 PM
Considering that, without those pendulum effects, all they have going for them IS ATK, yeah, it kinda is.
Well, yeah. If you were to disregard their Pendulum Effects then all they'll have left is their stats, but that's just a silly thing to do.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:12 PM
But you have to count with those Pendulum Effects. And they still have S/T support.
I don't agree with you.
Normal Monsters have the potential to become strong by giving them what they lack: effects. Not directly, but through buffs, for instance. Raising their ATK is not the solution, in my opinion.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:14 PM
Why? Right now we just have a searcher, a piercer, a summoner, a card destroyer, etc., most of which requires BATTLE to activate. Weak Normal Monsters can't get those effects off like strong ones do. And only 1 of the cards mentioned raises ATK of the Normal Monsters, so yeah, we have to take into account their ATK with the Normal Pendulum effects, to make sure we get the full picture.

On that note, why don't we get Normal Pendulums with higher scales that can summon cards like REBD and BEWD, but have the "You can only Pendulum Summon Normal Monsters" clause to go with that?

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:18 PM
I hate these kinds of Discussions; all they ever do is go in circles.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:19 PM
Then let's just agree to disagree, okay? Like I said, I know my opinion is unpopular, but that's just honestly how I feel. At the very least, can we agree that they should stop making 1900/2000 ATK level 4 Effect monsters with negative effects, now that we have multiple Normal monsters with those stats that make them worthless? Only way I can see them justifying that is if the other effects are so amazing that they need the negative effect to nerf those.

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:20 PM
Why? Right now we just have a searcher, a piercer, a summoner, a card destroyer, etc., most of which requires BATTLE to activate. Weak Normal Monsters can't get those effects off like strong ones do. And only 1 of the cards mentioned raises ATK of the Normal Monsters, so yeah, we have to take into account their ATK with the Normal Pendulum effects, to make sure we get the full picture.

How does any of this require BE to be removed as the strongest Normal Monster... It seems like what you want is for the monsters to have stronger Pendulum Effects. Also, allow me to make it clear, that this is not the only support Normal monsters and Normal Pendulums have and will have.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:22 PM
Why? Right now we just have a searcher, a piercer, a summoner, a card destroyer, etc., most of which requires BATTLE to activate. Weak Normal Monsters can't get those effects off like strong ones do. And only 1 of the cards mentioned raises ATK of the Normal Monsters, so yeah, we have to take into account their ATK with the Normal Pendulum effects, to make sure we get the full picture.

On that note, why don't we get Normal Pendulums with higher scales that can summon cards like REBD and BEWD, but have the "You can only Pendulum Summon Normal Monsters" clause to go with that?

And I like the fact you have to work your deck to pull yourself a victory. If you just had strong Normal Monsters and Pendulum Scales to Summon them, it wouldn't be very interesting, you know? You would just Summon a bunch of monsters a rip your opponent. As it is today, you have to think a little bit to use Normal Monsters to their fullest. You can't just count with obvious: their ATK.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:22 PM
I just want the Normal Monsters to be stronger, period, and Yes, BEWD NEEDS to be removed as the Strongest Normal Monster Evar. It's old, it's pointless, hardly anyone uses it outside of its own deck, and it needs to be dethroned. I'm tired of these almost-as-strong cards being printed to tease us of what they could do if they weren't so chicken shit about even matching a card that's been out since the beginning of the game.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:23 PM
Then let's just agree to disagree, okay? Like I said, I know my opinion is unpopular, but that's just honestly how I feel. At the very least, can we agree that they should stop making 1900/2000 ATK level 4 Effect monsters with negative effects, now that we have multiple Normal monsters with those stats that make them worthless? Only way I can see them justifying that is if the other effects are so amazing that they need the negative effect to nerf those.

But with the time, a lot of cards will become obsolete, of course. That's one more reason they shouldn't raise the bar. It will help to contribute to make older cards obsolete. Not all of them of course, but some of them.

Volteccer
25th November 2015, 10:24 PM
It would be interesting if they made powerful normal monsters as part of archtypes, encouraging you to use them as beaters you can search out. Put a little variety back in the main deck.

Ah, who am I kidding. No one would use them because they don't generate advantage and the only thing that matters is what's in your extra deck and how fast you can get them out.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:24 PM
And I like the fact you have to work your deck to pull yourself a victory. If you just had strong Normal Monsters and Pendulum Scales to Summon them, it wouldn't be very interesting, you know? You would just Summon a bunch of monsters a rip your opponent. As it is today, you have to think a little bit to use Normal Monsters to their fullest. You can't just count with obvious: their ATK.

Like you need to think with the other billions of broken effect monsters out there? No, they need to have more ATK to be relevant, I'm sorry. Better support is good, but right now, it's almost entirely focused on the one phase that REQUIRES them to have strong ATK to activate them; if you don't count the ATK, then the support is utterly useless.

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:24 PM
I just want the Normal Monsters to be stronger, period, and Yes, BEWD NEEDS to be removed as the Strongest Normal Monster Evar. It's old, it's pointless, hardly anyone uses it outside of its own deck, and it needs to be dethroned. I'm tired of these almost-as-strong cards being printed to tease us of what they could do if they weren't so chicken shit about even matching a card that's been out since the beginning of the game.
It's not pointless. You're just being incredibly narrow minded.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:25 PM
But with the time, a lot of cards will become obsolete, of course. That's one more reason they shouldn't raise the bar. It will help to contribute to make older cards obsolete. Not all of them of course, but some of them.

Maybe those cards need to be rendered obsolete. The only thing they have going for them is nostalgia and anime iconography, and that's not enough to sustain a deck, in this day in age.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:26 PM
I just want the Normal Monsters to be stronger, period, and Yes, BEWD NEEDS to be removed as the Strongest Normal Monster Evar. It's old, it's pointless, hardly anyone uses it outside of its own deck, and it needs to be dethroned. I'm tired of these almost-as-strong cards being printed to tease us of what they could do if they weren't so chicken shit about even matching a card that's been out since the beginning of the game.

You're contradicting yourself a bit. You said you would like Pendulum Scales to summon those high level monsters, but limiting the summons to that Archetype/kind of monsters, and now you're complaining BEWD is only used in its deck. But if you have scales with those limitations, you won't be able to use it outside of their own deck either.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:27 PM
It's not pointless. You're just being incredibly narrow minded.

Really? Narrow-minded? When I want to shake things up and get these cards to be better than they are, instead of letting Konami crap on them like you guys are happy to let them do. I'm sorry, but no; you guys are the narrow-minded ones, wanting to keep the same old stupid status-quo.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:29 PM
Maybe those cards need to be rendered obsolete. The only thing they have going for them is nostalgia and anime iconography, and that's not enough to sustain a deck, in this day in age.

Some of them are just iconic cards, yes. And?
Some people collect these cards. Some of them play these cards just for the fun of having a theme deck based on an iconic card. You shouldn't try to push every card to a meta state.

- - - Updated - - -


Really? Narrow-minded? When I want to shake things up and get these cards to be better than they are, instead of letting Konami crap on them like you guys are happy to let them do. I'm sorry, but no; you guys are the narrow-minded ones, wanting to keep the same old stupid status-quo.

Come on, the game's state has clearly evovled. It's not the same Status Quo.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:30 PM
You're contradicting yourself a bit. You said you would like Pendulum Scales to summon those high level monsters, but limiting the summons to that Archetype/kind of monsters, and now you're complaining BEWD is only used in its deck. But if you have scales with those limitations, you won't be able to use it outside of their own deck either.

Would they? Generic normal monsters are more flexible in decks than BEWD is in its own deck. You can do a whole lot of shit with a great handful of Normal Monsters that can be summoned under that limitation, than you can with a dedicated BEWD deck.

- - - Updated - - -


Some of them are just iconic cards, yes. And?
Some people collect these cards. Some of them play these cards just for the fun of having a theme deck based on an iconic card. You shouldn't try to push every card to a meta state.

- - - Updated - - -



Come on, the game's state has clearly evovled. It's not the same Status Quo.

Ah, hah. Like I'm the only one demanding cards be meta or crap. Hell, I'm not even saying that; I want them to be relevant, not meta or bust. You're mistaking me for an elitist who judges a card as shit or broken and nothing in between the moment it's announced.

As I said, let's just agree to disagree on this point; you guys can stay in your status quo, where normal monsters are pissed on by the game, and I'll still be trying to start a revolution against God King BEWD.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:32 PM
Would they? Generic normal monsters are more flexible in decks than BEWD is in its own deck. You can do a whole lot of shit with a great handful of Normal Monsters that can be summoned under that limitation, than you can with a dedicated BEWD deck.

Have you ever seen a deck that is not a Blue-Eyes deck running Blue-Eyes as a small engine? They can do some really twisted stuff and pull strong boss monsters to the field in one turn. Maybe even better than a dedicated BEWD deck.

- - - Updated - - -


Ah, hah. Like I'm the only one demanding cards be meta or crap. Hell, I'm not even saying that; I want them to be relevant, not meta or bust. You're mistaking me for an elitist who judges a card as shit or broken and nothing in between the moment it's announced.

But you're complaining because there are obsolete cards no one uses, because they cannot sustain a deck.

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:33 PM
Really? Narrow-minded? When I want to shake things up and get these cards to be better than they are, instead of letting Konami crap on them like you guys are happy to let them do. I'm sorry, but no; you guys are the narrow-minded ones, wanting to keep the same old stupid status-quo.
Lol. How about I be a bit more specific; you're being very close minded and illogical.
This statement from you is the perfect example of your close mindedness:
BEWD needs to be dethroned, I don't care what anyone says. They need to make a 3100 Normal Monster that can beat BEWD, period.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:36 PM
Have you ever seen a deck that is not a Blue-Eyes deck running Blue-Eyes as a small engine? They can do some really twisted stuff and pull strong boss monsters to the field in one turn. Maybe even better than a dedicated BEWD deck.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, no, I haven't. I've never seen a Blue-Eyes engine ANYWHERE outside of A Blue-Eyes deck. And believe me, I've been skulking around here, Pojo, and TCGPlayer for stuff like that. Nothing shows up. So tell me, where is this mythical non-BEWD-dedicated deck with a BE engine, anyway?



[QUOTE=Pendulum;13359]But you're complaining because there are obsolete cards no one uses, because they cannot sustain a deck.

*sighs* I never said they can't sustain a deck, I'm saying they're not strong enough to face the current meta, and Konami is putting more goddamn emphasis on broken effect monsters than power.

- - - Updated - - -


Lol. How about I be a bit more specific; you're being very close minded and illogical.
This statement from you is the perfect example of your close mindedness: "BEWD needs to be dethroned, I don't care what anyone says. They need to make a 3100 Normal Monster that can beat BEWD, period."

Because they do. That's the nature of progress and raising the bar in this game. You guys are being the narrow-minded ones by letting BEWD's anime iconography keep the game from surpassing it. That's you being illogical, not me.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 10:37 PM
I just want the Normal Monsters to be stronger, period, and Yes, BEWD NEEDS to be removed as the Strongest Normal Monster Evar. It's old, it's pointless, hardly anyone uses it outside of its own deck, and it needs to be dethroned. I'm tired of these almost-as-strong cards being printed to tease us of what they could do if they weren't so chicken shit about even matching a card that's been out since the beginning of the game.

ok so you just hate blue-eyes
also you have clearly not played against Exodia decks, as they do run BE

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:38 PM
*sighs* I never said they can't sustain a deck, I'm saying they're not strong enough to face the current meta, and Konami is putting more goddamn emphasis on broken effect monsters than power.

Now you're contradicting yourself too much. I thought you were just saying you wanted Normal Monsters to be in the between from Meta and useless. But now you're comparing them to meta.

And here you are saying they cannot sustain a deck:

Maybe those cards need to be rendered obsolete. The only thing they have going for them is nostalgia and anime iconography, and that's not enough to sustain a deck, in this day in age.

- - - Updated - - -


ok so you just hate blue-eyes
also you have clearly not played against Exodia decks, as they do run BE

I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about bringing FGD + No. 95 + BEWD Twin easily.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:38 PM
I've seen plenty of Exodia decks, and none of THEM run BE. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me of any of your arguments; you're living in the past, and letting the anime dictate what the strengths of cards should be. No, that's you being narrow-minded and ignorant. I'm championing change and progress, here, and if I'm going to be bitched out for it by the elitists who want to keep the status quo, so be it, but I won't be dragged down to your level.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 10:39 PM
[QUOTE=Pendulum;13359]
Because they do. That's the nature of progress and raising the bar in this game. You guys are being the narrow-minded ones by letting BEWD's anime iconography keep the game from surpassing it. That's you being illogical, not me.

....uhhhhh, the game Surpassed Blue-eyes a long time ago, when High ATK stopped being the only thing that mattered

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:41 PM
....uhhhhh, the game Surpassed Blue-eyes a long time ago, when High ATK stopped being the only thing that mattered

That quote is wrong. Please fix it.

- - - Updated - - -


I've seen plenty of Exodia decks, and none of THEM run BE. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me of any of your arguments; you're living in the past, and letting the anime dictate what the strengths of cards should be. No, that's you being narrow-minded and ignorant. I'm championing change and progress, here, and if I'm going to be bitched out for it by the elitists who want to keep the status quo, so be it, but I won't be dragged down to your level.

Even Spellbook can run BEWD.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:42 PM
Now you're contradicting yourself too much. I thought you were just saying you wanted Normal Monsters to be in the between from Meta and useless. But now you're comparing them to meta.

And here you are saying they cannot sustain a deck:


That's not what I was talking about, and you know it, stop trying to twist my words to fit into your argument. Normal Monsters don't have nostalgia or anime iconography to hold them back, which is why they need to push the envelope in power. Cards like BEWD, Summoned Skull, Dark Magician, and the like DO rely on those to stay popular and relevant, and Konami keeps on feeding the IV through their dead, rotted corpses BECAUSE of those aspects of them. I'm not contradicting myself AT ALL.

- - - Updated - - -


That quote is wrong. Please fix it.

- - - Updated - - -



Even Spellbook can run BEWD.

Where are the spellbook decks who run it, then? I've never seen any, have you? Stop trying to say "this deck can run it" or "that deck can run it", when there is literally NO EVIDENCE that they HAVE.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:46 PM
That's not what I was talking about, and you know it, stop trying to twist my words to fit into your argument. Normal Monsters don't have nostalgia or anime iconography to hold them back, which is why they need to push the envelope in power. Cards like BEWD, Summoned Skull, Dark Magician, and the like DO rely on those to stay popular and relevant, and Konami keeps on feeding the IV through their dead, rotted corpses BECAUSE of those aspects of them. I'm not contradicting myself AT ALL.

I'm not twisting anything. But ok. I think it's better for we to stop. You have your opinion. I respect it. However, I do not agree, and I've told you why and justified it. I don't want to start a war with you. You don't need to attack me by saying I'm trying to twist your words.
There, that settles it.

- - - Updated - - -


Where are the spellbook decks who run it, then? I've never seen any, have you? Stop trying to say "this deck can run it" or "that deck can run it", when there is literally NO EVIDENCE that they HAVE.

Just search on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUjNsMVrqsA

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:46 PM
I've been trying to tell you guys to agree to disagree MULTIPLE TIMES on here, without any result, and NOW you're agreeing to it? *pft* Whatever, I don't want to start a war with you guys, either, so I'll drop it. I've said my piece, you guys are too blind with nostalgia to agree, but that's the nature of fandom, I suppose, I won't start calling you guys names or anything about it.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 10:47 PM
I've seen plenty of Exodia decks, and none of THEM run BE. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me of any of your arguments; you're living in the past, and letting the anime dictate what the strengths of cards should be. No, that's you being narrow-minded and ignorant. I'm championing change and progress, here, and if I'm going to be bitched out for it by the elitists who want to keep the status quo, so be it, but I won't be dragged down to your level.

Ugh...
Dragon Library
Cards of consance ditch White Stone, draw 2, add BE to hand, thinning deck an extra card
BE is then discarded for Trade-in
Toon Table of Contents into itself, then into Toon Blue-eyes for Trade in

all feeding Royal Magical Library

That was the BE engine of what is probably the most used version of Exodia.dek

Also, both from this and our last argument, I think you are under the impression that you cannot be at fault and your view cannot be wrong.
You asked a question, We answered, you didn't like our answer, so we must be "Ignorant narrowminded Elitest who want to keep the status quo". you jumping to that shows that you were well below "Our Level" to begin with.

this is reminding me of that incident on the Wikia, so for the sake of not getting yourself banned again, Please grow up and drop the insults.

Change is not always good nor necessary, this is one of those cases.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:49 PM
I'm not twisting anything. But ok. I think it's better for we to stop. You have your opinion. I respect it. However, I do not agree, and I've told you why and justified it. I don't want to start a war with you. You don't need to attack me by saying I'm trying to twist your words.
There, that settles it.

- - - Updated - - -



Just search on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUjNsMVrqsA

2013? Seriously? Long before the stuff I mentioned with the Normal support even existed, and too long ago for it to actually be relevant, anymore? Try harder, pal.

- - - Updated - - -


Ugh...
Dragon Library
Cards of consance ditch White Stone, draw 2, add BE to hand, thinning deck an extra card
BE is then discarded for Trade-in
Toon Table of Contents into itself, then into Toon Blue-eyes for Trade in

all feeding Royal Magical Library

That was the BE engine of what is probably the most used version of Exodia.dek

Also, both from this and our last argument, I think you are under the impression that you cannot be at fault and your view cannot be wrong.
You asked a question, We answered, you didn't like our answer, so we must be "Ignorant narrowminded Elitest who want to keep the status quo". you jumping to that shows that you were well below "Our Level" to begin with.

this is reminding me of that incident on the Wikia, so for the sake of not getting yourself banned again, Please grow up and drop the insults.

Change is not always good nor necessary, this is one of those cases.

I'm not insulting people, I'm just turning their words against me back on them. I'm not calling them names or threatening to kill them if they don't agree with me or anything, and as far as I know, this is as calm and as civil as I've been in a YGO argument. So please, don't assume I'm the problem, here.

Besides, from what I remember of our last argument, that accusation is better fitted on you than me, which is why I put you on ignore, in the first place. Mayhaps you should do the same, if you don't like what I'm saying?

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:51 PM
Because they do. That's the nature of progress and raising the bar in this game. You guys are being the narrow-minded ones by letting BEWD's anime iconography keep the game from surpassing it. That's you being illogical, not me.
That's funny. Because that is not at all illogical. My arguments are entirely valid.
Some of yours on the other hand are truely illogical and overall just downright silly. With you making several assumptions and illogical comparisons, and in general constantly shifting the goalpost. I can only assume that you have a distaste for BE, and also, I referred to you as close-minded because you refuse to accept or even consider the opposing viewpoint, (as shown in the statement I quoted) believing your own to be final.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 10:52 PM
I'm not insulting people, I'm just turning their words against me back on them. I'm not calling them names or threatening to kill them if they don't agree with me or anything, and as far as I know, this is as calm and as civil as I've been in a YGO argument. So please, don't assume I'm the problem, here.

rly?


No, that's you being narrow-minded and ignorant. I'm championing change and progress, here, and if I'm going to be bitched out for it by the elitists who want to keep the status quo, so be it, but I won't be dragged down to your level.

looks like an insult to me.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:52 PM
2013? Seriously? Long before the stuff I mentioned with the Normal support even existed, and too long ago for it to actually be relevant, anymore? Try harder, pal.

It's a Blue-Eyes engine. It can be used nowadays with a great performance, not exclusively in that deck profile. Anyway, I'm out of this. I don't want problems with you.
I was just justifying my opinion, but you didn't like it, so you said I'm narrow minded and was twisting your words... Come on, dude. At least accept your mistakes. You contradicted yourself a little bit.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:54 PM
That's funny. Because that is not at all illogical. My arguments are entirely valid and supported.
Some of yours on the other hand are truely illogical and overall just downright silly. With you making several assumptions and illogical comparisons, and in general constantly shifting the goalpost. I can only assume that you have a distaste for BE, and also, I referred to you as close-minded because you refuse to accept or even consider the opposing viewpoint, (as shown in the statement I quote) believing your own to be final.

Ugh, this is the kind of shit that I got away from Pojo to avoid. Turn that around, apply it to you, and you've got it right. Now shut up, please, I don't want to get into another flame war over shit.

- - - Updated - - -


It's a Blue-Eyes engine. It can be used nowadays with a great performance, not exclusively in that deck profile. Anyway, I'm out of this. I don't want problems with you.
I was just justifying my opinion, but you didn't like it, so you said I'm narrow minded and was twisting your words... Come on, dude. At least accept your mistakes. You contradicted yourself a little bit.

An engine NO ONE USES, yet you keep insisting that people do. I made no mistakes, here, you're just using nostalgia and anime iconography to insist a card is more useful than it is, now.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 10:54 PM
That's funny. Because that is not at all illogical. My arguments are entirely valid.
Some of yours on the other hand are truely illogical and overall just downright silly. With you making several assumptions and illogical comparisons, and in general constantly shifting the goalpost. I can only assume that you have a distaste for BE, and also, I referred to you as close-minded because you refuse to accept or even consider the opposing viewpoint, (as shown in the statement I quoted) believing your own to be final.

and then going for the "Your Ignorant" button when we disagree.
She uses that word a lot, I don't think she knows what it means

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:55 PM
Funny how you think I'm a girl. Emphasizes my "you're ignorant" point, huh?

At this point, I'm done with all of you on this argument. I get where you're coming from, and it's from a very faulty position based entirely on iconography and popularity. I'm not going to keep on arguing my point, because it'll ultimately lead to a flame war, and I'm trying to avoid getting involved in those. So as far as I'm concerned, this debate is closed.

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:55 PM
Ugh, this is the kind of shit that I got away from Pojo to avoid. Turn that around, apply it to you, and you've got it right. Now shut up, please, I don't want to get into another flame war over shit.
Remarkable.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 10:56 PM
An engine NO ONE USES, yet you keep insisting that people do. I made no mistakes, here, you're just using nostalgia and anime iconography to insist a card is more useful than it is, now.

Get YGOpro, the Blue-eyes exodia engine is literally the provided Exodia Deck for the AI to use and is the reason people want to see Royal Magical Library to 0.

just because you haven't seen anyone use it, doesn't mean no one does. frankly it shows the lack of research you have done on the topic since its the probably the most common build for an Exodia deck

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:57 PM
An engine NO ONE USES, yet you keep insisting that people do. I made no mistakes, here, you're just using nostalgia and anime iconography to insist a card is more useful than it is, now.

No one uses it in meta nowadays, yeah, I know. But try to build a deck like that a see if it works or not.
And yes you contradicted yourself a little bit. And I'm not shielding myself behind nostalgia stuff. It's not just that. It's an icon. And if we start raising the bar to 3100 ATK, then why not to 3200? And then 3300? And so on?

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 10:57 PM
Funny how you think I'm a girl. Emphasizes my "you're ignorant" point, huh?

an assumtion given you always are talking about your boyfriend

also horribly irrelevent. and what was that about not insulting anyone?

Sanokal
25th November 2015, 10:57 PM
Blue-Eyes was advertised as "the strongest card in the game" back in its heyday. Nostalgia generally wins, end of story.

Cool it, the lot of you.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 10:57 PM
Get YGOpro, the Blue-eyes exodia engine is literally the provided Exodia Deck for the AI to use and is the reason people want to see Royal Magical Library to 0.

just because you haven't seen anyone use it, doesn't mean no one does. frankly it shows the lack of research you have done on the topic since its the probably the most common build for an Exodia deck

Exactly. Thank you.

Aromaiden
25th November 2015, 10:58 PM
This was simply brilliant.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 10:59 PM
Get YGOpro, the Blue-eyes exodia engine is literally the provided Exodia Deck for the AI to use and is the reason people want to see Royal Magical Library to 0.

just because you haven't seen anyone use it, doesn't mean no one does. frankly it shows the lack of research you have done on the topic since its the probably the most common build for an Exodia deck

I've never even seen the AI use that engine in their deck, And I have YGOPro updated on my tablet, so again, where is this mythical Exodia deck that uses it?

Sanokal
25th November 2015, 10:59 PM
I've never even seen the AI use that engine in their deck, And I have YGOPro updated on my tablet, so again, where is this mythical Exodia deck that uses it?

I don't believe that the AI uses it, but I've seen it a few times on DN.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:00 PM
I've never even seen the AI use that engine in their deck, And I have YGOPro updated on my tablet, so again, where is this mythical Exodia deck that uses it?

You just have to select the Exodia AI deck. YGOPro also has BE in the Spellbook deck, so check it.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:01 PM
No one uses it in meta nowadays, yeah, I know. But try to build a deck like that a see if it works or not.
And yes you contradicted yourself a little bit. And I'm not shielding myself behind nostalgia stuff. It's not just that. It's an icon. And if we start raising the bar to 3100 ATK, then why not to 3200? And then 3300? And so on?

By that logic, Level 4 Normal monsters should've stopped at 1800 ATK. Yet they didn't. Only nostalgia and iconography with a decades-old anime is keeping it from being usurped. It's had its time, it's over now, it needs to be surpassed.

- - - Updated - - -


You just have to select the Exodia AI deck. YGOPro also has BE in the Spellbook deck, so check it.

I have. Haven't seen it play BEWD yet.

Sanokal
25th November 2015, 11:01 PM
By that logic, Level 4 Normal monsters should've stopped at 1800 ATK. Yet they didn't. Only nostalgia and iconography with a decades-old anime is keeping it from being usurped. It's had its time, it's over now, it needs to be surpassed.

Well...except, "had its time"...isn't technically applicable with the new support coming out.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:02 PM
By that logic, Level 4 Normal monsters should've stopped at 1800 ATK. Yet they didn't. Only nostalgia and iconography with a decades-old anime is keeping it from being usurped. It's had its time, it's over now, it needs to be surpassed.

We're being repetitive here. Let's stop.


I have. Haven't seen it play BEWD yet.

It uses it as discard fodder for Trade-In.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:06 PM
I don't believe that the AI uses it, but I've seen it a few times on DN.

I don't play on DN, so I wouldn't know. Okay, point for that, but how many of those aren't ground into dust by the more recent decks?

- - - Updated - - -


We're being repetitive here. Let's stop.



It uses it as discard fodder for Trade-In.

Why not another level 8 monster? And don't tell me White Stone of Legend; that's more useful in a dedicated BEWD deck than in Exodia. A simple Summoner's Art can make ANY level 8 into Trade-In fodder, just as easily as Blue-Eyes.

- - - Updated - - -


Well...except, "had its time"...isn't technically applicable with the new support coming out.

For Blue-Eyes? I think you're mistaking me a little; I'm arguing that it has its time as the strongest Normal Monster, and that nostalgia and anime iconography is keeping it from being usurped in that position, that's all. I don't really care about it as an archetype, just as Teh Strongest MOnster Evar.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:07 PM
Why not another level 8 monster? And don't tell me White Stone of Legend; that's more useful in a dedicated BEWD deck than in Exodia. A simple Summoner's Art can make ANY level 8 into Trade-In fodder, just as easily as Blue-Eyes.

Why not? I'll list you the engine, then, for you to take your conclusions:

3xBE;
3x White Stone of Legend;
3xTrade-In (to use in tandem with RML);
3xCards of Consonance (to use in tandem with RML).

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 11:08 PM
I don't believe that the AI uses it, but I've seen it a few times on DN.

its the one mine came with, even has its own coding Titled "ExodiaLib"

Make sure you check the "Ai Decks" box if you are looking through Edit Deck.. assuming you have the same version I do

Screenshot of ithttp://imgur.com/gaJDkXA
http://imgur.com/gaJDkXA

if the pic doesn't work

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:11 PM
its the one mine came with, even has its own coding Titled "ExodiaLib"

Make sure you check the "Ai Decks" box if you are looking through Edit Deck.. assuming you have the same version I do

Screenshot of ithttp://imgur.com/gaJDkXA
http://imgur.com/gaJDkXA

if the pic doesn't work

I second this. It's exaclty like mine, obviously.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:16 PM
Actually, I think I should apologize for something: I didn't make my position clear enough, and probably got people confused. Let me try to clarify:

Level 4 Normal Monsters with 2000 ATK I'm okay with, and like to see more of; I'm confused why Konami keeps on making Effect Monsters with those same stats with negative effects but no positive ones to justify it. It seems pointless to me, and would make more sense with Effect monsters with 2400 ATK or more. Eventually, I think they can raise the bar to 2100 ATK or maybe even 2200, depending, but Effect monsters with comparable stats shouldn't need negative effects just because they're that strong.

Level 5/6 monsters have stopped the bar at 2600 ATK, and I don't know why. They can push it a little bit further, especially with the level 5 monsters.

I truly dislike how iconography is the only thing keeping BEWD as the strongest Normal Monster of all time; As an anime archetype, it's okay, and can do its own thing, but in setting the limit for strongest monster, it needs to be usurped by stronger Normal Monsters or stronger Effect Monsters with no negative effects.

The current Pendulum Effect support for Normal Monsters is good, but they mostly rely solely on battle to activate, which necessitates stronger monsters to keep them relevant. They thus either need to make the newer support drift away from that, or make Normal Monsters stronger to justify the battle phase requirement of the current support.

Finally, I'm not just talking about ATK with Normal Monsters; right now, the highest DEF for a level 4 Normal Monster is 2100, when there's plenty of Effect monsters that go beyond that. When will we get the bar raised in that capacity? And why is 3000 DEF the strongest a tribute monster can be, before it needs a negative effect, especially when plenty of level 5/6 Normal Monsters achieve that, already?

There, I hope I cleared things up.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:22 PM
Why not? I'll list you the engine, then, for you to take your conclusions:

Hmm. I can kinda see where you're coming from, but again, I don't get why another Normal level 8 monster brought out with Summoner's Art couldn't do something similar. Like, I forgot the full effect of White Stone, but I'm assuming you can ditch it with Cards of Consonance to get a draw and search out BEWD for Trade-In, which is about the only thing I can see going for it.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 11:26 PM
Hmm. I can kinda see where you're coming from, but again, I don't get why another Normal level 8 monster brought out with Summoner's Art couldn't do something similar.
Because you can't discard summoners art with Cards of Concenance to draw 2 and add a Trade in target to hand

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:28 PM
Because you can't discard summoners art with Cards of Concenance to draw 2 and add a Trade in target to hand

I kinda figured that out myself.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:29 PM
Hmm. I can kinda see where you're coming from, but again, I don't get why another Normal level 8 monster brought out with Summoner's Art couldn't do something similar.
This:

Because you can't discard summoners art with Cards of Concenance to draw 2 and add a Trade in target to hand

Come on, Synjo, just look at the list and think a bit. It's not that hard. Then again, you want strong normal monsters (high ATK), so I guess you don't like to put mental effort into yugioh stuff.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:32 PM
This:


Come on, Synjo, just look at the list and think a bit. It's not that hard. Then again, you want strong normal monsters (high ATK), so I guess you don't like to put mental effort into yugioh stuff.

I wouldn't say that, and I find it insulting that you'd say that (seriously, now who's being the troll, thinking that just because I want high-ATK normal monsters, means I am brainless enough to not get the basics of Yugioh?). I do prefer aggro decks to more methodical ones, though. And I already said that I got it. Read my previous posts.

Still doesn't mean that it's used that much, or in other decks outside those two.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:36 PM
I wouldn't say that, and I find it insulting that you'd say that (seriously, now who's being the troll, thinking that just because I want high-ATK normal monsters, means I am brainless enough to not get the basics of Yugioh?). I do prefer aggro decks to more methodical ones, though. And I already said that I got it. Read my previous posts.

Still doesn't mean that it's used that much, or in other decks outside those two.

You're right. When I started writing, your post wasn't available yet.

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 11:37 PM
Still doesn't mean that it's used that much, or in other decks outside those two.

you don't see a lot of old engines getting use anymore

also Hieratic Blue-eyes is a thing too, that's 3 decks using the Dragon, do I hear 4?

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:42 PM
Actually, I'm not sure why you guys are pissing on me for wanting a more battle-oriented meta, nowadays; we've had several metagames of OTK solitaire decks and now the big trend is with monsters that can't be targeted or affected by removal. More emphasis on battle would be a bit refreshing, in my opinion. Did the fear of overcoming cards like Dark Destroyer and/or Apoqliphort Towers scare people away from overpowering things in battle THAT much?

- - - Updated - - -


you don't see a lot of old engines getting use anymore

also Hieratic Blue-eyes is a thing too, that's 3 decks using the Dragon, do I hear 4?

That's no longer a thing, now; hasn't been in a long time. And, from what I remember when it was being played, there was a big debate over whether 4/8 or 5/6 was the stronger axis for Hieratics.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:42 PM
Actually, I'm not sure why you guys are pissing on me for wanting a more battle-oriented meta, nowadays; we've had several metagames of OTK solitaire decks and now the big trend is with monsters that can't be targeted or affected by removal. More emphasis on battle would be a bit refreshing, in my opinion.

I thought we were talking about Normal Monsters and their ATK. And I thought that desire of yours wasn't related to meta. And Blue-Eyes is not used in meta, so just don't bring meta to the matter.

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:45 PM
I thought we were talking about Normal Monsters and their ATK. And I thought that desire of yours wasn't related to meta. And Blue-Eyes is not used in meta, so just don't bring meta to the matter.

Eh, maybe they can be a rouge deck, I dunno. But you get my point, I hope.

Anyway, I also find it strange how the highest DEF level 4 and lower Normal Monsters are level 1. Why is that?

Dread Kaiser
25th November 2015, 11:54 PM
who said anything about wanting a not-battle oriented meta
that is EXACTLY what I want, and we don't need to dethrone blue-eyes for it

honestly more vanilla support and bigger vanillas would just turn into NeoSkilldrain.dek with Majesties fiend

SynjoDeonecros
25th November 2015, 11:57 PM
I don't see it going to that extreme, honestly.

Pendulum
25th November 2015, 11:58 PM
Like you didn't see Majespecter being competitive/meta?

SynjoDeonecros
26th November 2015, 12:00 AM
Like you didn't see Majespecter being competitive/meta?

They still aren't, I don't get what you're trying to insinuate.

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 12:01 AM
They still aren't, I don't get what you're trying to insinuate.

Majespecters do have competitive value.
And you should believe Dread's words. He knows what he's talking about.

SynjoDeonecros
26th November 2015, 12:04 AM
I doubt it, on both parts.

Dread Kaiser
26th November 2015, 12:07 AM
Dread Knows his shit

SynjoDeonecros
26th November 2015, 12:10 AM
I'd say something, but I don't want to get banned.

Back to the original topic, I find it curious how Konami made 2 level 4 2000 ATK Normal Monsters in consecutive sets. I was really hoping that that, along with the TCG Normal support we were getting, would herald a new set of Normal Monster badassness, but I guess not.

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 12:13 AM
I'd say something, but I don't want to get banned.

Back to the original topic, I find it curious how Konami made 2 level 4 2000 ATK Normal Monsters in consecutive sets. I was really hoping that that, along with the TCG Normal support we were getting, would herald a new set of Normal Monster badassness, but I guess not.

I hope not, for all of those reasons I mentioned before. By making all those Level 4 monsters with 2000 ATK, since they are from various types, they're overshadowing a lot of cards. I don't like it. I think they could try to make balanced cards to fit into the game. Of course, I want the game to evolve, but not into power creep or by just increasing ATK until no end, like you're suggesting.

SynjoDeonecros
26th November 2015, 12:47 AM
I never said "to no end", but let's be honest, that's not going to happen, what you want.

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 12:50 AM
You think Konami is going to make a vanilla with more than 3000 ATK?
Well, let's wait and see.

Hope in the Interstice
26th November 2015, 01:08 AM
Even if they did, it wouldn't change much. Nobody even runs Big Benkei outside of Superheavy Samurai decks.

I'd prefer to see more non-Effect monster support. Something including non-Effect Fusions, Synchros, and Xyz monsters. Perhaps Rituals, too.

Mystic TimeKeeper
26th November 2015, 09:10 AM
Even if they did, it wouldn't change much. Nobody even runs Big Benkei outside of Superheavy Samurai decks.

I'd prefer to see more non-Effect monster support. Something including non-Effect Fusions, Synchros, and Xyz monsters. Perhaps Rituals, too.

Not like you are forced to run it inside a Superheavy Samurai deck in the first place.

By the way, I prefer to stay with the "Throne" intact because I wouldn't like for Konami to start raising the bar around with Normal Monsters, If they break that barrier we may get 4000 ATK and DEF Vanilla in the near future considering how powercreep works, besides there are ways to manipulate the ATK score efficiently without making bigger monsters by themselves (if they do make a pair of normal pendulum monsters that raises/lower ATK by 300 for normal monster that pretty much gives you battle prowess).

As far as effect monsters go, the rule of 3000 doesn't really apply anymore so as long as they don't get normal monster support I'm fine with things going over 3000, by the way, In the CaC thread I made once a 3400 normal summoning dino, but people didn't like it much, so I guess people are still wary of easily summonable beatsticks.

Jolan
26th November 2015, 05:19 PM
I think powercreep is the best reason to not have a Normal monster with 2 tributes with more than 3000 atk. Despite how heavily the game has powercreeped in certain areas (just compare Kuriboh and Damage Juggler tbch), in other areas it's managed to avoid powercreep and I'm sure everyone agrees that it's a good thing and it's best to keep up the status quo for it. Power Creep is not healthy and is precisely why we should avoid increasing the base attack ceiling for normal monsters.

Mystic TimeKeeper
26th November 2015, 05:53 PM
Not to mention, I remember the original idea was that monsters with low ATK compensated with good effects and monsters with high ATK were already fine with that, if anything more than raising the bar I'd wish to lower it, I'd really like for the game to return to a state whether you actually need to choose between power or utility instead of getting everything already into the same package.

Dread Kaiser
26th November 2015, 07:27 PM
Not to mention, I remember the original idea was that monsters with low ATK compensated with good effects and monsters with high ATK were already fine with that, if anything more than raising the bar I'd wish to lower it, I'd really like for the game to return to a state whether you actually need to choose between power or utility instead of getting everything already into the same package.

I'd like the game to go back to when Monster battles, and by proxy battle traps and effects, were relevant and unavoidable, not solving all problems during main phase 1, then cockblocking further troubles with 1 card during THEIR MP1

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 07:42 PM
Ah yes, the days when a person had to run Seven Tools of the Bandit to dodge Mirror Force.

Dread Kaiser
26th November 2015, 07:47 PM
Ah yes, the days when a person had to run Seven Tools of the Bandit to dodge Mirror Force.

The days when destruction immunity mattered
the days when compulse was the only non-destructive generic removal
the days you actually lost things by losing battles
The days monsters had uses, other then being the number 4
The days when big boss monsters could actually live 1 turn to cause some damage, Remember when Shooting Star Dragon or Red-Nova were actually hard to get rid of?

Mofiz
26th November 2015, 08:04 PM
I'd like the game to go back to when Monster battles, and by proxy battle traps and effects, were relevant and unavoidable, not solving all problems during main phase 1, then cockblocking further troubles with 1 card during THEIR MP1

We have S39, not much better.

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 08:06 PM
The days when destruction immunity mattered
the days when compulse was the only non-destructive generic removal
the days you actually lost things by losing battles
The days monsters had uses, other then being the number 4
The days when big boss monsters could actually live 1 turn to cause some damage, Remember when Shooting Star Dragon or Red-Nova were actually hard to get rid of?

The days when LP mattered;
The days the Graveyard was literally a Graveyard;
The days the Deck was a card pile always getting thinner.

LolsterXD97
26th November 2015, 08:06 PM
The days when destruction immunity mattered
the days when compulse was the only non-destructive generic removal
the days you actually lost things by losing battles
The days monsters had uses, other then being the number 4
The days when big boss monsters could actually live 1 turn to cause some damage, Remember when Shooting Star Dragon or Red-Nova were actually hard to get rid of?

Reprint Shooting Star and Red Nova to make them banish themselves for the entire opponent's turn just like the Anime and then they may be SOMETHING against a solitare deck.

LolsterXD97
26th November 2015, 08:08 PM
The days when LP mattered;
The days the Graveyard was literally a Graveyard;
The days the Deck was a card pile always getting thinner.

The times where Yugioh wasn't just a Rock Paper Scissors with something extra after it.
The times where your opponent didn't play much so you didn't have time to go to the bathroom.
The times where higher ATK was a thing.
The times where Mirror Force was a threat.
The times where "Cannot be destroyed by battle" was menacing.

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 08:13 PM
The times where Yugioh wasn't just a Rock Paper Scissors with something extra after it.
The times where your opponent didn't play much so you didn't have time to go to the bathroom.
The times where higher ATK was a thing.
The times where Mirror Force was a threat.
The times where "Cannot be destroyed by battle" was menacing.

The days when I could keep my Wave-Motion Cannon enough to deal damage.
The days I could Normal Summon in one turn and use that monster as tribute for a Tribute Summon next turn.
Ah yes, the days when you used Man-Eater Bug to take your opponent's Summoned Skull down.

Mofiz
26th November 2015, 08:42 PM
2000 is the highest ATK without drawbacks for monsters without tributes. And no drawbacks means being a Vanilla, no negative nor positive effects. No point in making that higher.
Same for 3000. Blue-Eyes is the strongest Monster along some other effect monsters that don't have drawbacks though. Anything Level 8 or lower with more than 3000 ATK has some sort of disadvantage, with one exception. No need to change that. It's a good principle.

Mystic TimeKeeper
26th November 2015, 10:29 PM
The days when I could keep my Wave-Motion Cannon enough to deal damage.
The days I could Normal Summon in one turn and use that monster as tribute for a Tribute Summon next turn.
Ah yes, the days when you used Man-Eater Bug to take your opponent's Summoned Skull down.

The days where LV monsters were a fast strategy;
The days where compulse wasn't that good because you wanted monster to die rather than to send them back to hand to come back another day;
The days where we are going off topic as always with this nostalgia rant so let's turn to the original topic.

Let's keep some balance because I strongly believe that the Iconic values named 3000 and 5000 are extremely helpful in keeping whatever remains of this game in check.

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 10:37 PM
The days where LV monsters were a fast strategy;
The days where compulse wasn't that good because you wanted monster to die rather than to send them back to hand to come back another day;
The days where we are going off topic as always with this nostalgia rant so let's turn to the original topic.

Bouncing (back to hand) is bad nowadays, specially because of Pendulums. Nowadays what counts is sending back to Deck.


Let's keep some balance because I strongly believe that the Iconic values named 3000 and 5000 are extremely helpful in keeping whatever remains of this game in check.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. And Blue-Eyes shall continue to be the detainer of that 3000 ATK Normal Monster record.

Jolan
26th November 2015, 10:38 PM
Watching the YuGiOh GX anime again after a while, and it was refreshing to see how during Jaden's duel vs the Yugi deck thief, he explicitly stated that he has nothing in his deck that's got more Attack Points than the Dark Magician outside of E-Hero Bladeedge. Like, when you see a monster, your first thought was to take it down via battle.
Nowadays? You just go ''Can I Castel it'' first, and ''Can I target it'' second. Powercreep is incredible.

Mystic TimeKeeper
26th November 2015, 10:40 PM
Bouncing (back to hand) is bad nowadays, specially because of Pendulums. Nowadays what counts is sending back to Deck.

Since pendulums usually bring Xyz I say bouncing is still useful. Now if I could say the same about traps...


Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. And Blue-Eyes shall continue to be the detainer of that 3000 ATK Normal Monster record.

True, but I dare to say that having a Rival to Blue-Eyes (AKA another 3000 LV 8 normal monster) may be acceptable in the future, as long as the character that uses it is charismatic enough.

Pendulum
26th November 2015, 10:42 PM
True, but I dare to say that having a Rival to Blue-Eyes (AKA another 3000 LV 8 normal monster) may be acceptable in the future, as long as the character that uses it is charismatic enough.

It has to be as badass as Kaiba, at least.

clairedestroyer!
27th November 2015, 01:15 AM
You know y'all can just...play the older formats where that stuff mattered? Expecting the clock to run backwards is a fool's dream. It is actually just impossible for a game to reduce it's power level, because there is a fundamental reason some power creep is needed in a card game: progression. If you have a set of cards and everyone has already carved out their strategies and lines of play, they will not be interested in any new cards unless those cards are better. And that means strictly better. Not situationally equal. Not new lines of play that offer no advantage over the current one. This is an observable, repeatable fact. Even Yu-Gi-Oh has had the problem in the past of making a weak set. That set was Cyberdark Impact, and it was one of the most universally panned Yu-Gi-Oh sets, because absolutely nothing it offered was seen as valuable at that time. So you can't expect Konami to fix this game by just using sets to lower the power, because people won't buy weak sets. That means either something akin to set rotation (or worse) a huge massive banning of swaths of currently powerful cards. Both are difficult to justify and implement, and are also huge customer satisfaction headaches. People already think it's unfair when one or two cards of their deck are hit. Imagine if entire decks were obliterated. That's a PR nightmare.

It's much easier for players to just decide how they want to play, than to demand Konami chop off an arm for the sake of their leg. And since several of you all expressed similar interest, you probably don't even need to worry about finding players. There's several right here.

Dread Kaiser
27th November 2015, 01:36 AM
You know y'all can just...play the older formats where that stuff mattered? Expecting the clock to run backwards is a fool's dream. It is actually just impossible for a game to reduce it's power level, because there is a fundamental reason some power creep is needed in a card game: progression. If you have a set of cards and everyone has already carved out their strategies and lines of play, they will not be interested in any new cards unless those cards are better. And that means strictly better. Not situationally equal. Not new lines of play that offer no advantage over the current one. This is an observable, repeatable fact. Even Yu-Gi-Oh has had the problem in the past of making a weak set. That set was Cyberdark Impact, and it was one of the most universally panned Yu-Gi-Oh sets, because absolutely nothing it offered was seen as valuable at that time. So you can't expect Konami to fix this game by just using sets to lower the power, because people won't buy weak sets. That means either something akin to set rotation (or worse) a huge massive banning of swaths of currently powerful cards. Both are difficult to justify and implement, and are also huge customer satisfaction headaches. People already think it's unfair when one or two cards of their deck are hit. Imagine if entire decks were obliterated. That's a PR nightmare.

It's much easier for players to just decide how they want to play, than to demand Konami chop off an arm for the sake of their leg. And since several of you all expressed similar interest, you probably don't even need to worry about finding players. There's several right here.

We can and I do on occasion, no one here would be stupid enough to really expect the playstyle to rollback like that. there are plenty of things people don't like or would perfer, but wouldn't really expect to ever happen

clairedestroyer!
27th November 2015, 01:39 AM
That's good then. Maybe make it a more regular thing! Or a tournament maybe. Or create your own format if part of the issue is people wanna use newer, but weaker cards. There's a lot of options to explore.

Dread Kaiser
27th November 2015, 02:06 AM
That's good then. Maybe make it a more regular thing! Or a tournament maybe. Or create your own format if part of the issue is people wanna use newer, but weaker cards. There's a lot of options to explore.


I usually create my own and use ancient things that would never be seen or be far less practical. or like Duelist Kingdom Era character decks

SynjoDeonecros
27th November 2015, 04:35 AM
Anyone want more 2600 ATK level 5/6 Normal Monsters? We only have 2, that I know of: Frostosaurus and Trance, the Magical Swordsman.

Dread Kaiser
27th November 2015, 05:23 AM
There really isn't a demand for bigger vanillas, in all my years of YGO, this is the first time I've seen someone asking for that

Sanokal
27th November 2015, 06:54 AM
Frostosaurus must be the top. A Dinosaur must always be the king of ATK!

Pendulum
27th November 2015, 09:00 AM
Frostosaurus must be the top. A Dinosaur must always be the king of ATK!

Either that or Blue-Eyes.

But yeah, I'm fine with Frostosaurus and Trance being at 2600 ATK and that being the top for 1 tribute vanillas.

Baroque
27th November 2015, 10:31 AM
Either that or Blue-Eyes.

But yeah, I'm fine with Frostosaurus and Trance being at 2600 ATK and that being the top for 1 tribute vanillas.

With Giga Gagagigo as the top for 0 Tribute vanillas. :p
What do you mean, "but that's only in ALO"? That's the joke!

Pendulum
27th November 2015, 10:35 AM
With Giga Gagagigo as the top for 0 Tribute vanillas. :p
What do you mean, "but that's only in ALO"? That's the joke!

What?
And I saw that tiny text before you paint it with "invisible ink".

Baroque
27th November 2015, 10:39 AM
What?
Oh, you know. WATER things.

And I saw that tiny text before you paint it with "invisible ink".
You saw nothing. :p Other than progress.

Pendulum
27th November 2015, 10:41 AM
Oh, you know. WATER things.

Ah yeah.


You saw nothing. :p Other than progress.
I'll keep that progress a secret.

SynjoDeonecros
27th November 2015, 07:41 PM
I wouldn't mind a level 6 2625/2650 ATK monster, eventually, or maybe even a 2700 ATK monster. Let that be the limit for Level 6 monsters, and have the 2800+ ATK be for Level 7 and above monsters.

Pendulum
27th November 2015, 07:46 PM
I wouldn't mind a level 6 2625/2650 ATK monster, eventually, or maybe even a 2700 ATK monster. Let that be the limit for Level 6 monsters, and have the 2800+ ATK be for Level 7 and above monsters.

But then, the discrepancy between 1-Tribute monsters and 2-Tribute monsters ATK would be too little. It already is. Let's not make it even less. And don't say "let's increase the 3000 ATK bar" again, please.
And why do you so strongly want a 1-Tribute vanilla (or not) to have 2700 ATK? To Pendulum Summon it with the generic scale 7? Pendulum Summon is already a super strong mechanic, let's not make it even stronger.

SynjoDeonecros
27th November 2015, 08:01 PM
Bah, you guys are no fun, you know that?

Pendulum
27th November 2015, 08:31 PM
Why not? Just because we and you disagree and we substantiate our opinions? Just try to convince us otherwise, then.

SynjoDeonecros
27th November 2015, 08:46 PM
You implying I don't? Wow, you're full of yourself. I thought we were done with the mudslinging here...

Seriously, the only "substantiating" I've been hearing is two things:

1. You guys are too scared of getting more powerful Normal Monsters, and think they'll break the game (here's a hint: THEY WON'T)
2. BEWD is too iconic to be toppled as Teh Strongest Normal (tip: the time where iconography can dictate the limits of a card is long gone, suck it up and deal with it).

Those are literally the only two arguments I've heard against this. I say fucking do it, let's raise the bar of level 7+ Normal Monster ATK to 3300, let's try for a 2300 ATK level 4 Monster, or a level 5/6 monster with 2700 ATK. They won't be broken, they'll be more useful in the game, and put the game less in a "whoever can wipe the field with effects and solitaire their way to victory, wins", and more into a "battle with strategy".

You know what the problem was with Apoqliphort Towers or Dark Destroyer? It's not because they have such high ATK that players aren't able to beat them down, it's because they've got outrageous effects that prevent them from being destroyed by things BUT battle, and people are too lazy to try and use strong monsters to actually fight it out, relying too much on their goddamn effects to deus ex machina their way through a problem. It's not that the monsters are too powerful, stat-wise, it's that they're too powerful EFFECT-WISE, and people can't be bothered to deal with the former if they can deal with it with the latter. That's why I like overall aggro decks; they're more strategic and require actual forethought on how to get around effects to go in for the kill with your monsters, not hoping to get the right cards to crush the opponent through sheer broken effects.

You know what monster would terrify me, if it were ever easier to summon? C69. Why? Because it has an insanely high ATK and DEF for its rank, and not only does it not have a restriction on it, but it's got an insanely powerful effect to go with it. Imagine if, instead of a rank-up Xyz, it was an effect monster on the level of Apoqliphort Towers or Dark Destroyer: a level 8 or so Effect Monster with 4000 ATK and the ability to nuke the opponent's field if they attack PERIOD - not just attack it, but attack AT ALL. THAT, in my opinion, is too much; you already got an ATK that's worthy of most boss monsters, but it's also got an effect that essentially says "fuck you" to the opponent's attempt to get over it without effects. Even as an Xyz monster, you don't need normal Number 69 to get that effect, just a rank-up card, or 4 level 5 monsters for Xyzing it (Dinomists, anyone?). If a monster got THAT powerful, both in ATK and in effect, I'd agree with you that upping the bar on ATK would be possibly a bad thing, but these are NORMAL MONSTERS; they need outside effects to protect them, so the only thing they have internally IS their stats, and besides, even with that, we've got cards like Psychic Sword and Moon Mirror Shield to overcome that.

So please, don't give me a lecture on how upping the stat bar for normal monsters will break the game, because in all seriousness, it won't; it'll just make Normal Pendulum a bit stronger, and possibly give Normal Monsters an edge against the top decks out there as a rouge deck. That's all.

Pendulum
27th November 2015, 09:30 PM
You implying I don't? Wow, you're full of yourself. I thought we were done with the mudslinging here...

Seriously, the only "substantiating" I've been hearing is two things:

1. You guys are too scared of getting more powerful Normal Monsters, and think they'll break the game (here's a hint: THEY WON'T)
2. BEWD is too iconic to be toppled as Teh Strongest Normal (tip: the time where iconography can dictate the limits of a card is long gone, suck it up and deal with it).

Dude, just calm down. I only said we have our opinion and you could try to convince us otherwise. You don't need to get offended by that.


Those are literally the only two arguments I've heard against this. I say fucking do it, let's raise the bar of level 7+ Normal Monster ATK to 3300, let's try for a 2300 ATK level 4 Monster, or a level 5/6 monster with 2700 ATK. They won't be broken, they'll be more useful in the game, and put the game less in a "whoever can wipe the field with effects and solitaire their way to victory, wins", and more into a "battle with strategy".

You know what the problem was with Apoqliphort Towers or Dark Destroyer? It's not because they have such high ATK that players aren't able to beat them down, it's because they've got outrageous effects that prevent them from being destroyed by things BUT battle, and people are too lazy to try and use strong monsters to actually fight it out, relying too much on their goddamn effects to deus ex machina their way through a problem. It's not that the monsters are too powerful, stat-wise, it's that they're too powerful EFFECT-WISE, and people can't be bothered to deal with the former if they can deal with it with the latter. That's why I like overall aggro decks; they're more strategic and require actual forethought on how to get around effects to go in for the kill with your monsters, not hoping to get the right cards to crush the opponent through sheer broken effects.

So, you would prefer Killer and Dark Destroyer didn't have those effects, right? That way you would just run over them. And? Just bashing head to head is... boring. Whoever has the monster with higher ATK wins. That brings us back to the time where Summoned Skull was strong.
As a side note: I'm not saying Killer or Dark Destroyer have cool legitimate effects.


You know what monster would terrify me, if it were ever easier to summon? C69. Why? Because it has an insanely high ATK and DEF for its rank, and not only does it not have a restriction on it, but it's got an insanely powerful effect to go with it. Imagine if, instead of a rank-up Xyz, it was an effect monster on the level of Apoqliphort Towers or Dark Destroyer: a level 8 or so Effect Monster with 4000 ATK and the ability to nuke the opponent's field if they attack PERIOD - not just attack it, but attack AT ALL. THAT, in my opinion, is too much; you already got an ATK that's worthy of most boss monsters, but it's also got an effect that essentially says "fuck you" to the opponent's attempt to get over it without effects. Even as an Xyz monster, you don't need normal Number 69 to get that effect, just a rank-up card, or 4 level 5 monsters for Xyzing it (Dinomists, anyone?). If a monster got THAT powerful, both in ATK and in effect, I'd agree with you that upping the bar on ATK would be possibly a bad thing, but these are NORMAL MONSTERS; they need outside effects to protect them, so the only thing they have internally IS their stats, and besides, even with that, we've got cards like Psychic Sword and Moon Mirror Shield to overcome that.

So please, don't give me a lecture on how upping the stat bar for normal monsters will break the game, because in all seriousness, it won't; it'll just make Normal Pendulum a bit stronger, and possibly give Normal Monsters an edge against the top decks out there as a rouge deck. That's all.

Synjo, the thing is: C69 is not a Level 8 effect monster and is harder to Summon. But by your ideas, some day, we will end with a Level 8 monster with 4000 ATK (like, for instance, a vanilla), because you want to continue to raise the bar. I still don't agree. C69 is strong, but not that strong. However is strong enough to not have a similar pure effect monster counterpart.
Normal Monsters don't need ATK to get stronger. They need more support, yes, I agree with that. But raising the ATK is not the solution.

Mystic TimeKeeper
27th November 2015, 09:33 PM
Ok, let's do things in order:


1. You guys are too scared of getting more powerful Normal Monsters, and think they'll break the game (here's a hint: THEY WON'T)

It's not a matter of breaking the game, it's a matter of keeping things into a reasonable limit, If we start going over the "Barriers" as I call them, considering how much Konami can held itself back the only result we will get is that we will have even more outclassed cards, just like when we got Gene-Warped Wolf all the 1900 Normal Monster clique became instantly outclassed, Today we're arguing about going over 3000 for LV8 monsters, in a few years we could be running around with 2500 LV 4 monsters;


2. BEWD is too iconic to be toppled as Teh Strongest Normal (tip: the time where iconography can dictate the limits of a card is long gone, suck it up and deal with it).

Nothing to say here except that the time where iconography can dictate the limits of a card seems still around since Konami hasn't shown sign of giving us another normal monster with even equal attack to Blue-Eyes so we aren't exactly sucking up anything;


Those are literally the only two arguments I've heard against this. I say fucking do it, let's raise the bar of level 7+ Normal Monster ATK to 3300, let's try for a 2300 ATK level 4 Monster, or a level 5/6 monster with 2700 ATK. They won't be broken, they'll be more useful in the game, and put the game less in a "whoever can wipe the field with effects and solitaire their way to victory, wins", and more into a "battle with strategy".

I say that raising ATK won't do much in that sense, it will just shorten the overall time of games since we can swing for more damage. Problem with normal monsters is not that they lack the power, but being Normal Monsters they cannot generate as much advantage as effect monsters by design, it's not a surprise then that Normal support tend to be relatively overpowered to balance things (at least it was in the past, now they just support Pendulums). To make again a battle of wits more than bigger things we need to stop making every thing reward you even when it dies.


You know what the problem was with Apoqliphort Towers or Dark Destroyer? It's not because they have such high ATK that players aren't able to beat them down, it's because they've got outrageous effects that prevent them from being destroyed by things BUT battle, and people are too lazy to try and use strong monsters to actually fight it out, relying too much on their goddamn effects to deus ex machina their way through a problem. It's not that the monsters are too powerful, stat-wise, it's that they're too powerful EFFECT-WISE, and people can't be bothered to deal with the former if they can deal with it with the latter. That's why I like overall aggro decks; they're more strategic and require actual forethought on how to get around effects to go in for the kill with your monsters, not hoping to get the right cards to crush the opponent through sheer broken effects.

Here I feel like disagreeing with you, the problem with Towers for me was never the effect, that was something that I could have dealt with if I could run him over in battle, I honestly cursed more the -500 to special monsters that coupled with the scales effect that gave -300 to everything made him almost unreachable, If I had to deal with only a 3000 body immune to stuff I could just beat him over with Unicore of all things (that's when I played Necloth, and I never got out without at least a Decisive Armor) but the -500 screwed with me and meant that only Trishula or Gungnir could beat over him with the aid of Decisive Armor. If Dark destroyer was just an untargettable 3000 body we wouldn't be making such a big deal about it, the problem happens when everything your opponent has floats into something else, not to mention they are painfully easy to summon. But again, if Destroyer was a 2400 you could just run over him with Meteorburst and no problem.

SynjoDeonecros
27th November 2015, 09:41 PM
You guys are basically saying the same thing I am; it's the effects that are the problem, not the stats. Stats are easy to manipulate; effects, a lot less so. That's why I'm not against raising the bar with the normal monsters, because they have nothing BUT their stats standing in their way, whereas most of the cards used nowadays are effect monsters with overpowering and annoying effects that you can't easily deal with. I don't see what the disagreement is, here, honestly.

Mystic TimeKeeper
27th November 2015, 09:46 PM
You guys are basically saying the same thing I am; it's the effects that are the problem, not the stats. Stats are easy to manipulate; effects, a lot less so. That's why I'm not against raising the bar with the normal monsters, because they have nothing BUT their stats standing in their way, whereas most of the cards used nowadays are effect monsters with overpowering and annoying effects that you can't easily deal with. I don't see what the disagreement is, here, honestly.

Mostly for me the disagreement is in the fact that I don't trust Konami one millimeter so I strongly believe that raising the bar won't help Normal Monsters much in the end since they will raise the bar for everything in the end and the next Dark Destroyer will be a 3500 and we will be there again, not to mention I've got kinda used to these limits and I'd rather keep them even if just because I'm used to them.

Dread Kaiser
27th November 2015, 09:46 PM
and it begins again
We are not full of ourselves and no one is scared of jack shit. we are talking about Vanillas, there is exactly 0 reason to ever be scared of them. This is also the first mention of anyone being scared so its not really an argument and more of you mudslinging again.


tip: the time where iconography can dictate the limits of a card is long gone, suck it up and deal with it

Here we go again, That is your opinion, not a objective fact. Yet you are stating it as if it was an indisputable fact and something we all have to accept, then calling us "Full of ourselves", "Ignorant" and the usual when we disagree. and we all disagree. the fact that exactly 0 people have agreed with or supported you should raise a flag that your opinions are unpopular, or flatout wrong. The fact that BEWD Hasn't been toppled is proof that your opinion is plain wrong.

And given that Konami has refused to do so up til this point, despite having 20 years and multiple "Almost bigger vanillas", its safe to say that " the time where iconography can dictate the limits of a card" is FAR from over, whether you like it or not.

"Suck it up and deal with it"

The recent Nostalgia-Driven products is just further evidence that Konami Likes its Iconic value, if only because they can market it.


It's not because they have such high ATK that players aren't able to beat them down, it's because they've got outrageous effects that prevent them from being destroyed by things BUT battle
Ok, people stopped caring about solving things by battle a long time ago, how does that translate to "make bigger vanillas". the vanillas, no matter how strong, would be passed over for their lack of effects. Towers stopped being a threat when Utopia the Lightning was made, every R4NK deck has access to 2 ways to kill towers, Synchro decks have access to even bigger things.

and no, you haven't really substanciated your opinions, you just pointed out that big things exist, then insisted that they make bigger vanillas...instead of bigger anything else.
You have explained why we should have bigger monsters, you explanation of "Why they need to be vanillas and why they need to topple BEWD" consisted soley of "because Vanilla Pendulums exist". if there was anything more to it, you did a horrible job of explaining it. if there isn't anything more, then you simply failed to provide sufficient reasoning to convince us, then insult us when we are not convinced.

either way, the end result is just you giving us the impression you have some irrational hatred for the Dragon/Iconic Value instead of actual reasoning to back it.

Pendulum
27th November 2015, 09:47 PM
You guys are basically saying the same thing I am; it's the effects that are the problem, not the stats. Stats are easy to manipulate; effects, a lot less so. That's why I'm not against raising the bar with the normal monsters, because they have nothing BUT their stats standing in their way, whereas most of the cards used nowadays are effect monsters with overpowering and annoying effects that you can't easily deal with. I don't see what the disagreement is, here, honestly.

I just don't know what more to say.
If stats are so easy to manipulate, why do you want to raise the bar, then? If we start raising the bar, in a few years we're going to have this exact conversation.
Just don't try to push everything into meta/competitive environment. Some decks are stronger, some are weaker and it will always be that way.
Normal Monsters are slower and inconsistent because they rely in a lot of other cards, they can't rely only in themselves. They're weakerin comparsion with effect monsters and it will always be like that. If you want to raise their ATK so high they'd be able to keep up with effect monsters, you would have to raise the ATK to absurd levels.

Dread Kaiser
27th November 2015, 10:11 PM
You guys are basically saying the same thing I am; it's the effects that are the problem, not the stats. Stats are easy to manipulate; effects, a lot less so. That's why I'm not against raising the bar with the normal monsters, because they have nothing BUT their stats standing in their way, whereas most of the cards used nowadays are effect monsters with overpowering and annoying effects that you can't easily deal with. I don't see what the disagreement is, here, honestly.

The disagreement as that you are saying things that completely contradicts rules and logic that have been around for nearly 20 years. Even without the Blue-eyes, the number "3000" is significant.

Raising the bar:
a, Is unneeded, they could instead provide vanillas with far better support that lets them compete with the current game. I can think of plenty of means of powering up Vanillas as they are and actually making them formidable.
b, Solves nothing and just makes existing problems worse, all to buff a deck that not only doesn't matter, but still wouldn't matter even with it.
c, If it DID work, it would just spit on absolutely everything that came before them. It would just place an impassable wall before all old decks and ensuring they will never have any place, ever, because they would be weaker then a vanilla. Instantly obsoleting a few thousand cards is not a good idea, ever.

Where is the benefit?

This games power creep is out of control, and the Average ATK scores are the one thing it hasn't touched yet. Open that can of worms, and we will have Regular R4NKS with 4000 ATK before we know it

In short, there is no issue with Present power levels, No reason to change them and nothing good would come of it if we did. You have provided no solid argument to the contrary, and we disagree as a result.


Mostly for me the disagreement is in the fact that I don't trust Konami one millimeter so I strongly believe that raising the bar won't help Normal Monsters much in the end since they will raise the bar for everything in the end and the next Dark Destroyer will be a 3500 and we will be there again, not to mention I've got kinda used to these limits and I'd rather keep them even if just because I'm used to them.

Basically. Not to mention raising the bar will just make OTK's even more of a problem unless they raise the Starting Life total with it or add Summoning Sickness to the game.

SynjoDeonecros
27th November 2015, 10:18 PM
Bah. Agree to disagree it is, then.

Jolan
27th November 2015, 10:32 PM
1. You guys are too scared of getting more powerful Normal Monsters, and think they'll break the game (here's a hint: THEY WON'T)

I think this is extremely wrong but it's difficult to explain why. It's just...powercreep, you know? It breaks the game. Not now, but like 6 years from now.

Dread Kaiser
27th November 2015, 10:34 PM
I think this is extremely wrong but it's difficult to explain why. It's just...powercreep, you know? It breaks the game. Not now, but like 6 years from now.

Power-creep broke the game last year, when DUEA launched.

Icematoro
28th November 2015, 06:11 AM
I'll be waiting for Konami to release a Vanilla with 3001 atk, lvl 8, and always considered "Blue-Eyes White Dragon"! Flavor Text: There, we raised the bar, Happy?

KingJinzo
30th November 2015, 11:30 PM
no level 7 or higher Normal monster exceeds 2900, besides Blue-Eyes White Dragon. I find that strange, since Dark Magician was meant to be the "ultimate power in ATK and DEF" for its level, but it doesn't come close to cards like Gogiga Gagagigo
Aside from the already mentioned Rabidragon, Gogiga Gagagigo himself has 2950 ATK.


Yeah, but why haven't we gotten a Normal Monster that matches BEWD's 3000 ATK? And why haven't any level 4 or lower Normal Monsters exceeded 2100 DEF? It's always the effect monsters that do that.
Even with all the way how the game has evolved, there are things that won't be changed. Blue-Eyes White Dragon was presented as the most powerful monster regarding raw power during the time she was introduced, with the exception of Exodia. That was true until the Battle City. Even during the first chapter she appeared, she was the considered as the strongest card ever. In fact, Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon was even the strongest Fusion Monster in the entire manga. As a matter of fact, most other monsters who have 3000 ATK or go beyond cannot be Normal Summoned, with some of them being even harder to play than just Tribute Summoning them (of course, there is the opposite). I think Konami gives her much respect for not releasing a Normal Monster that can surpass her in terms of raw power something that equals her. History has always portrayed her as the ultimate Normal creature on top, and de-throwning her would be a huge insult in YGO history. Even though her role in the actual real game is different than in anime and manga, the anime and manga are deeply tied into the game. Certain cards will get certain treatment, and the ARC-V era proved that even old cards like Red-Eyes, Gaia or Buster Blader haven't been forgotten. And Blue-Eyes does get new support. Limits are limits. Whether they will be passed through or not is a question of time, but I guess that no Normal Monster can beat Blue-Eyes White Dragon by their own strength. That was the point why Red-Eyes and Dark Magician are much weaker than her. Blue-Eyes represents power, Red-Eyes represents potential, and Dark Magician represents... I don't know... tactics I guess? To surpass raw strength, you either need great potential or tactics. That's why most rivals use powerhouses and why the protagonist have so many ass cards.