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Hope in the Interstice
13th December 2015, 04:02 AM
... Well. The original thread was deleted and I can't quite be bothered to write it back up again.

So. LV monsters. Fallen out of favour. Why? What is it that makes them bad? Can they be made good again? How?

Ziz
13th December 2015, 04:04 AM
"Level-Up-Magic"

ScionStorm
13th December 2015, 04:33 AM
Can they be made good again?
Yes, but where KONAMI is concerned---> NEKROZ was their idea of relevance.


"Level-Up-Magic"
It's called Yugi's Turn Jump.

Volteccer
13th December 2015, 02:17 PM
One thing could be discard the later versions to add the earlier to your hand. Make it a little more consistent.

JTSW
13th December 2015, 02:58 PM
There are LV monsters of every attribute except Water which bothers me.

LV monsters could still be a thing with search support and protection support specifically for them. And of course if they have good effects.

Brightshine Stardust
13th December 2015, 05:58 PM
Maybe if the Level-Up concept wasn't so restricting for some of them.....having to destroy a monster in battle with their relatively low ATK means you'll need to use other cards just to be able to Level-Up them. Mystic Swordsman series is a ridiculously stupid example of this - their effect conveniently destroys a monster, but they can only Level-Up if they destroy a monster in battle, not by their effect.
Silent Swordsman LV5 even has to do a direct attack. How many times you see a chance to do that in today's era?
Allure Queen series is the worst, as they completely depends on your opponent's cards. Also they needs an errata, the Level-Up part on their text is confusing.



And having to wait for the next Standby Phase to level them up once, just doesn't go well in today's era where you'll want to bring out the best monster quickly.
So maybe Yugi's Time Jump should be printed as a Spell card that allows them to Level-Up immediately, without sacrificing the higher LV monster's effect. That is important, as that was the weakness of Level Up! - some LV monsters require them to be summoned by their predecessor, not by another card, which makes Level Up! useless for them. Level Modulation also has too much downside. All that's left is Level Down?!, and it says something bad when the best support for an archetype that's about level up, is a card that levels them down.



.......Basically, they need more S/T supports, and good ones. Protection until the next Standby Phase, or cards that allows them to Level-Up, without having the higher LV version be reduced to just a vanilla beater. And of course, cards that makes it easier for them to actually fulfill their Level-Up requirement (since it won't be fun if your only option is to just level them up with Spell cards each turn)

Also, "ignoring its Summoning Condition" should now completely ignore correct Summoning procedure like it should. Cards like Level Modulation should be able to SS a Nomi/Semi Nomi monster from the Graveyard even if it was never properly Summoned. I mean, why do you call it "ignoring its Summoning Condition" if it doesn't actually ignore them?






There are LV monsters of every attribute except Water which bothers me.


It also bothers me that there are Duel Dragon/Signer Dragon for every Attribute except Water ._.

Volteccer
13th December 2015, 08:21 PM
Level monster's general mediocrity is kind of confusing, since konami loves monsters that evolve (see: fusions of fusions, synchro laddering, and rank-up magic).

Sanokal
13th December 2015, 11:05 PM
Actually, I think that making Level monsters with support similar to Rank-Up-Magic cards is a neat idea.

Hope in the Interstice
13th December 2015, 11:10 PM
Actually, I think that making Level monsters with support similar to Rank-Up-Magic cards is a neat idea.
Wouldn't that just be Level Up! but retaining the evolution's effects like we've already discussed?

Sanokal
13th December 2015, 11:23 PM
Wouldn't that just be Level Up! but retaining the evolution's effects like we've already discussed?

Presumably. They'd also need some archetypal and generic support in the vein of stuff like Fluffal Owl to search out Level Up! and possibly something like Fusion Conscription.

Hope in the Interstice
13th December 2015, 11:46 PM
So it seems that the general weakness of LV monsters is that their Level Up conditions are absurdly hard to pull off. What's more, LV monsters of a higher level are essentially dead in the hand. Is that about it?

Sanokal
13th December 2015, 11:50 PM
So it seems that the general weakness of LV monsters is that their Level Up conditions are absurdly hard to pull off. What's more, LV monsters of a higher level are essentially dead in the hand. Is that about it?

Sounds about right.
I'm seriously getting interested in designing support for these cards.

Baroque
24th December 2015, 07:55 AM
I'm gonna chime in here with something related.

I'm sure we all remember when Chazz picked up Armed Dragons in GX, and there was a considerable amount of hype surrounding them -- especially once he produced another form of it atop the existing ones, which went and skipped an extra Level up. And then we became relatively disappointed when, surprise! We couldn't use "Level Up!" to make it. That bit hard.

Same story for some of the later LV monsters like Allure Queen and Dark Lucius, only in their case their design as a whole made "Level Up!" useless to them due to not allowing them their effects.

If we ever see a revival or resurgence for LV monsters, whether it's extra forms tacked onto extant ones or new sets of them entirely, I want them to design them with Level Up! in mind as a card in the sense that I want Level Up! to actually have some USE for those cards. Something like a condition where the tacked-on extra can be SS'd from-Deck by discarding "Level Up!" and sending such-and-such "LV" monster to the Graveyard or something like that (obviously in addition to its normal method), or where the new LV monster's line is designed more like the older ones so that it doesn't matter so much if you end up using "Level Up!" to make it.

What do you guys think about this notion?

Hope in the Interstice
24th December 2015, 08:46 AM
I'm gonna chime in here with something related.

I'm sure we all remember when Chazz picked up Armed Dragons in GX, and there was a considerable amount of hype surrounding them -- especially once he produced another form of it atop the existing ones, which went and skipped an extra Level up. And then we became relatively disappointed when, surprise! We couldn't use "Level Up!" to make it. That bit hard.

Same story for some of the later LV monsters like Allure Queen and Dark Lucius, only in their case their design as a whole made "Level Up!" useless to them due to not allowing them their effects.

If we ever see a revival or resurgence for LV monsters, whether it's extra forms tacked onto extant ones or new sets of them entirely, I want them to design them with Level Up! in mind as a card in the sense that I want Level Up! to actually have some USE for those cards. Something like a condition where the tacked-on extra can be SS'd from-Deck by discarding "Level Up!" and sending such-and-such "LV" monster to the Graveyard or something like that (obviously in addition to its normal method), or where the new LV monster's line is designed more like the older ones so that it doesn't matter so much if you end up using "Level Up!" to make it.

What do you guys think about this notion?
That's a fair idea. On the other hand, to make older LV monsters viable, it might be more productive to simply make a Level Up! card that treats the summon target as having being Special Summoned by its previous form's effect.

Acetraker
4th January 2016, 12:53 AM
Main issues with LV monsters

1) They don't generate advantage by themselves
2) The LV up mechanic is too slow
3) They have no in built protection, a requirement for any monster to exist for more than a couple turns in today's game states.
4) They are not arch type decks, meaning the LV support is generic but each level monster has zero support this put them massively behind any themed deck.
5) The Conditions for level up are too restrictive and designed in a different age of ygo an thus no longer relevant / achievable today.

Side notes: LV decks kind of function like protect the castle or tower defence. the problem is the castle/tower is weak and outpaced by most effects and cards.

For ideas it would interest me to see if it where possible to some how copy elements of Card Fight Vanguard, Vanguard Units for LV monsters. In a format in that ygo can handle without to many mechanical changes.

The idea would to be make the main monster the avatar and your other cards the protectors or supporters. To that card.

E.g. for example you could have themed cards that could do things like intercept (attacks, an effects etc) and protect the main LV monster and many other options.