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citrus
22nd December 2015, 02:33 PM
I was reading Play to Win (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw), and around the Deception section, I started thinking about what it takes for us play this game competitively and succeed.

At the bare minimum, we need to know about what cards do, how they interact with each other, and how other players take advantage of these interactions. A metagame is basically defined by a series of card interactions that--now, more than ever--are powerful and highly consistent. The power of an interaction can manifest in many different ways (depriving/creating resources, restricting plays, inflicting huge damage, etc.), but the interactions in themselves are typically highly predictable, especially in a mature (some may call stale) metagame. This allows us to build decks around these interactions: to consistently produce them, overpower them, and/or counter them.

How does work in the Yu-Gi-Oh! anime/manga universe?

For the sake of discussion, ignore the fact that writers need to create duels that lead to high tensions and back-and-forth action. Think about all of the duels that must necessarily happen in a world that revolves around card games. How do the people in this world build their decks? Play this game?

From what I can gather, there seems to be a nearly infinite card pool in that universe. It must be finite, of course, because someone makes them, but there are so many more archetypes. And yet, so many players choose to play cards that so incredibly situational that they're often strictly worse than cards we already know. Perhaps all the generic staples we have are banned or no longer produced... In any case, this isn't the main concern.

In a world with so many different decks to build, and all seemingly boosted and nerfed to be similarly competitive, how does anyone build their decks? It's not hard to pick an archetype or strategy to play--you just choose what you like--but what about the rest of the deck? Do they build their decks just to be the most optimal in a complete vacuum? How do they know what to include for incidentals? What happens when duelists meet, where one of their decks simply hard-loses to the other?

Dread Kaiser
22nd December 2015, 04:32 PM
fist thing to know, in Universe this game is to them what Fighting in DBZ would be. You can really extrapolate the rest from there. the Deck is representative of the character and the game is in place of actual combat, using that DBZ Analogy, it would be their Techinque list, they "learn" more cards (usually extra deck stuff) when needed and can get better through training. This is where Yuzu's Fusions came from, she "Learned Fusion" and bam she has an extra deck now. Ditto with Enlightenment Paladin, he couldn't have possibly been given that beforehand, but he got his hands on a tuner and that Synchronization thing taught him Synchro, so bam.

in short, the card pool actually is Infinite since people create cards though training or sudden insight into some Friendship/Bonds/Entertainment or some other philosophic matter.....oh and magic. some cards coming and going as they please (Majestic Dragon, Sabatiel, Eldritch stuff of the season) is a thing too

it should be obvious given that many people don't know the effect of 99% of their opponents cards (Pot of Greed!) and run right into them (things like Pegasus' self made cards don't help) that they simply CAN'T prepare for anything. they build their decks within their theme/Archetype and stick with it (Rex n Weevil stuck with their Dinos and bugs despite having "Every card in the game" Available to them via Doma) and whenever they run into a counter strategy, Adapt and make a workaround within theme to deal with it (Team 5D's vs Meklords)


to summarize, they don't have a Metagame. At all. Nearly every character has a unique deck, you can't really make a metagame around things like that

Volteccer
22nd December 2015, 04:45 PM
Occasionally characters have been seen commissioning cards; if I2 or it's equivalent does make custom cards for anyone, then that explains why there are millions of different cards, and yet everyone has a coherent deck of just stuff on theme for them, that also fits their personality.

KingJinzo
24th December 2015, 12:56 AM
Pretty much everyone has a "bad" deck. Each character has cards inside them nobody in real life would put them into a competitive deck. Some characters use their own will or magic to draw the card they want, hence why Yusei drew five Tuners in a row (he abused the power of the Crimson Dragon and nakama no kizuna). And most character seems to shuffle really bad, and maybe their Duel Disk have bad shuffle systems. Lotten always draws his OTK hand, while most other character draws the same cards again and again without any indication of multiple copies. We do see Yuzu having MST, but she never draws it whatsoever. Speaking of shuffling, she didn't shuffle in episode 83 at all, hence she drew the same card she had during her previous duel.

LolsterXD97
24th December 2015, 12:57 AM
Pretty much everyone has a "bad" deck. Each character has cards inside them nobody in real life would put them into a competitive deck. Some characters use their own will or magic to draw the card they want, hence why Yusei drew five Tuners in a row (he abused the power of the Crimson Dragon and nakama no kizuna). And most character seems to shuffle really bad, and maybe their Duel Disk have bad shuffle systems. Lotten always draws his OTK hand, while most other character draws the same cards again and again without any indication of multiple copies. We do see Yuzu having MST, but she never draws it whatsoever. Speaking of shuffling, she didn't shuffle in episode 83 at all, hence she drew the same card she had during her previous duel.

Timelords, Numeron... These aren't bad, these are broken to infinity and beyond. People would kill for a Giant Trunade that shuffles in TCG land.

ScionStorm
24th December 2015, 01:17 AM
Pretty much everyone has a "bad" deck. Each character has cards inside them nobody in real life would put them into a competitive deck.

We've seen what the competitive meta thinks of deck building. The anime/manga would be so horrifically awful if it resembled competitive play in even the slightest. That would end the franchise right then and there.

Thanako
24th December 2015, 01:28 AM
Within the universe of the YGO media; your deck comes from your heart. Arc-V for example has scoffed off rare cards that don't fit your theme but just cost a lot of money for being good. They are nice to have, but not needed. Recognized as good, but they have no heart.

The people within the universe generally run a theme that resonates with them; and almost every theme in that world has some means of expanded support. New cards come all the time, and mixing that with both suspension of disbelief and the fact that we never see all of the cards in their decks.

You want to build a deck that suits your own little card type. Some people are given the exact same decks to act as one unit; but the game in universe is an every day part of life, and thus is treated as an extension of yourself. If you could choose from a much more expansive array of decks that all worked (they do in the anime, ignore actual consistency) you would use a preferred theme.

It has less to do with using the most powerful cards, and more to do with using the cards that mean the most to you well enough to overcome the people like Sawatari Shingo that begin by just buying their decks off and having no soul with their duels. We have seen even villains in the main series care about their cards, and are more upset at losing them, rather than losing the duel. There are serious bonds between card and duelist, sometimes shown off in obnoxious ways.

A good comparison would be to compare it to your fashion sense; assuming you could have any type of clothes you wanted with no monetary restriction.

KingJinzo
24th December 2015, 01:51 AM
Timelords, Numeron... These aren't bad, these are broken to infinity and beyond. People would kill for a Giant Trunade that shuffles in TCG land.

Yeah, but these guys are basically cheating with their broken decks. At least the protagonists have to cheat to defeat them. 20,000 ATK Sephylon, and 100,000 ATK Nummeronious Nummeronia. Trap Cards from the hand, Spell Cards as Xyz Material substitutes. Those guys aren't people, they are more deities. At least Don Thousand is a legit deity.

Icematoro
24th December 2015, 04:09 AM
This topic is pretty case sensitive:

YGO DM: Players have to get their cards through normal means, either by buying, receiving or stealing their cards. Rare cards = "Good" Cards (I Still struggle to believe Red-Eyes and Dark Magician were anything like good, even on anime standards), heck, even the god cards had to be hand made by pegasus, and passed over like they're Kuribohs! Most people center their deck around a theme, mostly a thing of personal tastes, usually something to match their ace cards.

YGO GX: Mostly the, Cards are still obtained through normal means, but you see players like Bastion actually building (or at least modifying) their decks to counter their opponent's. The fact that they're on a duel academy could be why their decks are usually different, they trade/buy new cards and test them to get better results on tests (and, you know, staying alive, 'cause shadow games). Jaden's Neo-Spacians were printed by Kaiba Corp and sent to space (How'd he retrieved them again? I really don't know...) so they wouldn't necessarily count as asspulls, his fusion monsters tho, they seem awfully convenient, but I digress. Needless to say, from season 3 onwards, it all went to trash lol

And I'll leave it at that for now, I'm too sleepy to finish this. Feel free to correct me here, my memory isn't by any means sharp, so it's pretty darn possible I made a mistake somewhere. I'll get to 5D's tomorrow if no one beats me to it ;)

Dread Kaiser
24th December 2015, 04:24 AM
This topic is pretty case sensitive:

YGO DM: Players have to get their cards through normal means, either by buying, receiving or stealing their cards. Rare cards = "Good" Cards (I Still struggle to believe Red-Eyes and Dark Magician were anything like good, even on anime standards), heck, even the god cards had to be hand made by pegasus, and passed over like they're Kuribohs! Most people center their deck around a theme, mostly a thing of personal tastes, usually something to match their ace cards.

Traps and effects in general were insanely rare, at the early stages of DM the entirety of the game was Monster+Power-up spell combos. Things like Battle Ox were mentioned to be among the most powerful cards and a friggin master of the game, Kaiba, used Saggi the Fucking Clown, Monsters that DID have effects were relatively weak. Flash forward to KCGP and Leon was mentioned to have 100% Effect monsters, which was apparently ...you know, worth mentioning.

Once Normal Monsters stopped being the mainstay powersource of everyone deck (didn't happen til LATE in the series, and not at all in the Manga), it was already established that those kinds of cards were powerful so they were stuck with it. worth mentioning that it doesn't exactly mean the card on its own, but probably includes the things that go with it. Remember all of the shit you can do with Red-eyes or Dark Magician for example and it makes much more sense. Then there was that Memorable scene of Pegasus shitting his Pants when Yugi summoned the Magician of Black Chaos

In short, with Destruction effects hard to come by, Big sticks were much more effective then they would have been in any other scenario, doubly so since the game was MUCH slower then it is now. No Omnipresent removal, No Synchros or Xyz, nearly no searching power and only MAYBE 2 summons in 1 turn if you have Monster Reborn around, all that makes 2400 ATK is a LOT scarier.



YGO GX: Mostly the, Cards are still obtained through normal means, but you see players like Bastion actually building (or at least modifying) their decks to counter their opponent's. The fact that they're on a duel academy could be why their decks are usually different, they trade/buy new cards and test them to get better results on tests (and, you know, staying alive, 'cause shadow games). Jaden's Neo-Spacians were printed by Kaiba Corp and sent to space (How'd he retrieved them again? I really don't know...) so they wouldn't necessarily count as asspulls, his fusion monsters tho, they seem awfully convenient, but I digress. Needless to say, from season 3 onwards, it all went to trash lol

And I'll leave it at that for now, I'm too sleepy to finish this. Feel free to correct me here, my memory isn't by any means sharp, so it's pretty darn possible I made a mistake somewhere. I'll get to 5D's tomorrow if no one beats me to it ;)

The Capsule containing them somehow found its way to Neo-space. Jaden somehow found his way to Neo-space and picked them up, then beat an Alien with them as a test run.......What? GX isn't known for its stellar writing you know

on GX, you will also note that Bastion not only considered his opponents, but actually had multiple decks. you will then note his track record. Then there was Dimitri. Had Yugi's Deck and still lost? because it wasn't HIS deck. Jaden tried to use Strategy against Zane, it blew up in his face. A lot.

Moral of the stories, Doing your own thing the way you like is apparently THE best way to do things. you can prepare and netdeck all you want but it won't be nearly as effective in the end. It'd be nice if it worked that way IRL instead of everyone using a card for card identical deck

Fun Fact: Fusions were NOT Physical cards originally, they actually just stacked the 2 cards on top of eachother and the system did the rest. Originally you could probably fuse damn near anything you wanted. They were effectively just cards under the effects of another card, kinda like Red-eyes Black Metal Dragon. and again it was GX, nearly everything Jaden did was awfully convenient.


As for 5D's, that was a clusterfuck. Stardust Aside everything Yusei had was literally someones trash at some point, atleast at the start. meaning SOMEONE threw away several Synchros, which were apparently stupid hard to get since JACK FUCKING ATLUS only had...what 5? Cards that weren't magic'd were trash at some point and aside from Ushio getting a new deck handed to him, they didn't really depict anyone getting new cards. Team Taiyo dug up theirs too. Then we had Zushin, who EVERYONE and their grandmother had, a incredibly rare instance of more then 1 person owning the same card, (Same MONSTER card anyway, everyone had fucking pot of greed and Reborns....cept 5D's, only series that DIDN'T use Reborn)

Mari
24th December 2015, 04:38 AM
I wouldn't know quite how to put it with the rest of the series but with Arc-V it always felt like in Standard since Action Duels are the main attraction, if you want to learn how to do well in Action Duels you have to enter a dueling school that probably helps you train but also encourages you to play a certain deck theme/playstyle (an entertainment theme with You Show or an aggressive playstyle with Ryozanpaku) aaaand that's probably why there's more variety (when it comes to Action Duels at least) combined with the fact that card rarity is different in-universe.

Zarkiel
24th December 2015, 07:39 AM
I actually don't think its too far fetched from how ours works. When you look at it, the card pool is much larger, but higher rarity cards are more scarce than ours. For example, an ultra rare card might only have a few copies. How characters get them is more involved with the plot. Extra decks also don't have a limit to them, hence why certain characters can have so many different fusions, synchros, or exceeds.

Volteccer
24th December 2015, 01:38 PM
Traps and effects in general were insanely rare, at the early stages of DM the entirety of the game was Monster+Power-up spell combos. Things like Battle Ox were mentioned to be among the most powerful cards and a friggin master of the game, Kaiba, used Saggi the Fucking Clown, Monsters that DID have effects were relatively weak. Flash forward to KCGP and Leon was mentioned to have 100% Effect monsters, which was apparently ...you know, worth mentioning.

Once Normal Monsters stopped being the mainstay powersource of everyone deck (didn't happen til LATE in the series, and not at all in the Manga), it was already established that those kinds of cards were powerful so they were stuck with it. worth mentioning that it doesn't exactly mean the card on its own, but probably includes the things that go with it. Remember all of the shit you can do with Red-eyes or Dark Magician for example and it makes much more sense. Then there was that Memorable scene of Pegasus shitting his Pants when Yugi summoned the Magician of Black Chaos

In short, with Destruction effects hard to come by, Big sticks were much more effective then they would have been in any other scenario, doubly so since the game was MUCH slower then it is now. No Omnipresent removal, No Synchros or Xyz, nearly no searching power and only MAYBE 2 summons in 1 turn if you have Monster Reborn around, all that makes 2400 ATK is a LOT scarier.




The Capsule containing them somehow found its way to Neo-space. Jaden somehow found his way to Neo-space and picked them up, then beat an Alien with them as a test run.......What? GX isn't known for its stellar writing you know

on GX, you will also note that Bastion not only considered his opponents, but actually had multiple decks. you will then note his track record. Then there was Dimitri. Had Yugi's Deck and still lost? because it wasn't HIS deck. Jaden tried to use Strategy against Zane, it blew up in his face. A lot.

Moral of the stories, Doing your own thing the way you like is apparently THE best way to do things. you can prepare and netdeck all you want but it won't be nearly as effective in the end. It'd be nice if it worked that way IRL instead of everyone using a card for card identical deck

Fun Fact: Fusions were NOT Physical cards originally, they actually just stacked the 2 cards on top of eachother and the system did the rest. Originally you could probably fuse damn near anything you wanted. They were effectively just cards under the effects of another card, kinda like Red-eyes Black Metal Dragon. and again it was GX, nearly everything Jaden did was awfully convenient.


As for 5D's, that was a clusterfuck. Stardust Aside everything Yusei had was literally someones trash at some point, atleast at the start. meaning SOMEONE threw away several Synchros, which were apparently stupid hard to get since JACK FUCKING ATLUS only had...what 5? Cards that weren't magic'd were trash at some point and aside from Ushio getting a new deck handed to him, they didn't really depict anyone getting new cards. Team Taiyo dug up theirs too. Then we had Zushin, who EVERYONE and their grandmother had, a incredibly rare instance of more then 1 person owning the same card, (Same MONSTER card anyway, everyone had fucking pot of greed and Reborns....cept 5D's, only series that DIDN'T use Reborn)

All of Yusei's non-Stardust synchros would either be deemed weak (Armory Arm), or require a specific tuner (all the rest), and someone else threw the tuner out because most of the synchrons are bad.

Dread Kaiser
24th December 2015, 05:19 PM
All of Yusei's non-Stardust synchros would either be deemed weak (Armory Arm), or require a specific tuner (all the rest), and someone else threw the tuner out because most of the synchrons are bad.

how good they are isn't the the point, their rarity is. Synchros are crazy Rare. remember Ushio's reaction to Yusei even HAVING them?

Icematoro
24th December 2015, 07:00 PM
Traps and effects in general were insanely rare, at the early stages of DM the entirety of the game was Monster+Power-up spell combos. Things like Battle Ox were mentioned to be among the most powerful cards and a friggin master of the game, Kaiba, used Saggi the Fucking Clown, Monsters that DID have effects were relatively weak. Flash forward to KCGP and Leon was mentioned to have 100% Effect monsters, which was apparently ...you know, worth mentioning.

Indeed, I remember watching the show as a child and wondering: "Why is no one using Dark Hole?!"
It was a specially recurring Idea, Dark Hole was amazing during that time, and using a god damn Black Hole to trash your opponent's cards (And yours in the proccess...) was the coolest thing ever.


Once Normal Monsters stopped being the mainstay powersource of everyone deck (didn't happen til LATE in the series, and not at all in the Manga), it was already established that those kinds of cards were powerful so they were stuck with it. worth mentioning that it doesn't exactly mean the card on its own, but probably includes the things that go with it. Remember all of the shit you can do with Red-eyes or Dark Magician for example and it makes much more sense. Then there was that Memorable scene of Pegasus shitting his Pants when Yugi summoned the Magician of Black Chaos

In short, with Destruction effects hard to come by, Big sticks were much more effective then they would have been in any other scenario, doubly so since the game was MUCH slower then it is now. No Omnipresent removal, No Synchros or Xyz, nearly no searching power and only MAYBE 2 summons in 1 turn if you have Monster Reborn around, all that makes 2400 ATK is a LOT scarier.

While I do understand that, still, 2 tributes to pull a 2400 monster?... With Summoned Skull out And Later Cyber Tech Alligator?! If I ever ran Red-Eyes or DM was for the cool-factor (I don't remember running stuff like Thousand Knives, probably because after 10 duels without using it, you get tired of it). That said, Magician of Black Chaos' natural 2800 attack was pretty darn scary back then (Even if bringing him out was a little too expensive for what he was worth back then) so that scene was pretty much earned.


The Capsule containing them somehow found its way to Neo-space. Jaden somehow found his way to Neo-space and picked them up, then beat an Alien with them as a test run.......What? GX isn't known for its stellar writing you know.

That's for sure...


On GX, you will also note that Bastion not only considered his opponents, but actually had multiple decks. you will then note his track record. Then there was Dimitri. Had Yugi's Deck and still lost? because it wasn't HIS deck. Jaden tried to use Strategy against Zane, it blew up in his face. A lot.

I try not to dig too much with Bastion, because all things considered, he was supposed to be a pretty good duelist, while not exactly capable of dueling the top guns (or any evil villian with magic on it's side). He was a walking Irony an the show was self aware of that...

Dimitri's Case was simple, he pretended to be Yugi, but he lacked the connection with Yugi's Cards, so "The heart of the cards" wasn't on his side (The deck didn't liked him so it did not respond to him, basically)

And with Jaden, it can be argued he sucks at strategies lol, To each their own.


Moral of the stories, Doing your own thing the way you like is apparently THE best way to do things. you can prepare and netdeck all you want but it won't be nearly as effective in the end. It'd be nice if it worked that way IRL instead of everyone using a card for card identical deck


If you build your deck with the stuff you like (Which directly results in you liking YOUR deck) it'll respond to you, truly a nice moral, aplying that to real life is whishful thinking unfortunately, but hey! Casual dueling proves that you can still have fun like that!... When "Those guys" aren't there to play meta in Traditional/Unranked...


As for 5D's, that was a clusterfuck. Stardust Aside everything Yusei had was literally someones trash at some point, atleast at the start. meaning SOMEONE threw away several Synchros, which were apparently stupid hard to get since JACK FUCKING ATLUS only had...what 5? -How good they are isn't the point, their rarity is. Synchros are crazy Rare. remember Ushio's reaction to Yusei even HAVING them?- Cards that weren't magic'd were trash at some point and aside from Ushio getting a new deck handed to him, they didn't really depict anyone getting new cards. Team Taiyo dug up theirs too.

If we are to use Arc-V's Synchro dimension as an expansion of 5D's (And yes, I'm aware they're not entirely comparable), the rich will throw away anything they cannot, or don't feel like using, Yusei's were, no pun intended, Trash Synchros, Hard to pull effectively, and for most rich people (Because nothing with a low level was deemed good, we had that explained to us by that Ancient-Gear guy) practically impossible to use.

Regardless of that, yes, Yusei (and let's not forget Crow) got crazy lucky, later in the show we see only a handful of players had Synchros (If you weren't important, you wouldn't get a Synchro (Leo and Luna had only 1 each...), was pretty much how the story worked).

I guess we can assume the Crimsom Dragon had something to do with this, but seems a little too much farfetch'd


Then we had Zushin, who EVERYONE and their grandmother had, a incredibly rare instance of more then 1 person owning the same card, (Same MONSTER card anyway, everyone had fucking pot of greed and Reborns....cept 5D's, only series that DIDN'T use Reborn)

That moment shattered my disbelief entirely. Not only everyone had the card, but everyone BROUGHT it with them? Wtf?! I guess most would carry their decks everywhere with them, but that card that was known to be almost impossible to use? Team Taiyou said it was the first time they pulled it, so it's not like they had a clue something like that would happen...

Sotavento
25th December 2015, 12:48 AM
I do remember Kaiba using Dark Hole at a certain point of the anime, or was it Zane, or Bastion? I don't remember very well..


Everything that had to be said has been said already. Every and each deck in the anime is unique to their owner (with the exception of Security from 5D's/Arc-V and Obelisk Force), it represents them, and they probably had the chance to build better decks or having better cards, but they felt it didn't fit their style. I'm not sure, after all, we're talking about a series revolving card games, which at the beginning it had a lot of inconsistencies.

Dread Kaiser
25th December 2015, 02:49 AM
I do remember Kaiba using Dark Hole at a certain point of the anime, or was it Zane, or Bastion? I don't remember very well..


Everything that had to be said has been said already. Every and each deck in the anime is unique to their owner (with the exception of Security from 5D's/Arc-V and Obelisk Force), it represents them, and they probably had the chance to build better decks or having better cards, but they felt it didn't fit their style. I'm not sure, after all, we're talking about a series revolving card games, which at the beginning it had a lot of inconsistencies.

It was Yugi, during the Legendary Heroes (AKA Virtual World 1) arc

KingJinzo
25th December 2015, 01:33 PM
While I do understand that, still, 2 tributes to pull a 2400 monster?... With Summoned Skull out And Later Cyber Tech Alligator?! If I ever ran Red-Eyes or DM was for the cool-factor (I don't remember running stuff like Thousand Knives, probably because after 10 duels without using it, you get tired of it). That said, Magician of Black Chaos' natural 2800 attack was pretty darn scary back then (Even if bringing him out was a little too expensive for what he was worth back then) so that scene was pretty much earned.

Red-Eyes Black Dragon was introduced during the time Tribute Summoning wasn't invented yet, and Cyber Tech Alligator wasn't introduced until season 4. 2400 ATK was still very high back in Duelist Kingdom, especially since Blue-Eyes White Dragon was the most powerful single beatstick that wasn't a God card, a Fusion or Ritual, Exodia or is made of multiple monsters (Gate Guardian). There were only a few monsters stronger than Red-Eyes, and Red-Eyes had extreme potential and apparently could fuse with anything to surpass Blue-Eyes. That's why also Black Magician was considered powerful, and he has a lot of (random) combos around him, with Yugi and Pandora/Arkana having all the available Spell Cards to support him. Monsters like Seiyaryu, Machine King or Zera were considered, I'm quoting Yugi from the Japanese dub, "Ultra Rare".

Spell Cards in DM were more broken, since apparently all of them can be used as Quick-Play Spells, regardless whether they were Normal Spell or Equip Spells.

Icematoro
25th December 2015, 03:33 PM
Spell Cards in DM were more broken, since apparently all of them can be used as Quick-Play Spells, regardless whether they were Normal Spell or Equip Spells.

That was actually a one time thing, Kaiba activated a continuous spell that allowed spell cards for both sides to be used as Quick Plays (Admit it, you were thinking Surprise Pot of Greed lol)

And again, Summoned Skull, Argument invalid =I

Dread Kaiser
25th December 2015, 04:39 PM
That was actually a one time thing, Kaiba activated a continuous spell that allowed spell cards for both sides to be used as Quick Plays (Admit it, you were thinking Surprise Pot of Greed lol)

And again, Summoned Skull, Argument invalid =I

well he DID play that, but they used spells as quickplays plenty enough, the Dub usually corrected them as Traps. Battle Phase Monster Reborn to Revive Gods for example.

Icematoro
25th December 2015, 07:40 PM
well he DID play that, but they used spells as quickplays plenty enough, the Dub usually corrected them as Traps. Battle Phase Monster Reborn to Revive Gods for example.

???? That's odd, I rewatched DM entirely like 3-4 months ago (Japanese with English Subs), and I don't have any recollection of stuff like that happenning, and I usually jump to call BS on duels when a card is clearly misused.
Meh, I might have not been paying attention.

KingJinzo
26th December 2015, 12:27 AM
And again, Summoned Skull, Argument invalid
No. In Duelist Kingdom, Summoned Skull, Black Magician and Red-Eyes Black Dragon were all monsters that can be summoned without tribute, since Tribute Summon wasn't even invented yet. Summoned Skull was only slightly stronger than Red-Eyes, and as strong as Black Magician. Summoned Skull's low DEF was even his weakness when Jounouchi played Shield and Sword. You can't bring up tribute as an argument, since we are talking about the anime, not real life. When Tribute Summon was introduced, Summoned Skull was played only twice (thrice if we count that one scene from season 4, but at that moment everyone played their monsters without following any rules).

ScionStorm
26th December 2015, 12:41 AM
mmm Yeah. Tribute summons was a new rule that began with Battle City along with the bump from 2000 LP gamestart to 4000.

Icematoro
26th December 2015, 01:43 AM
No. In Duelist Kingdom, Summoned Skull, Black Magician and Red-Eyes Black Dragon were all monsters that can be summoned without tribute, since Tribute Summon wasn't even invented yet. Summoned Skull was only slightly stronger than Red-Eyes, and as strong as Black Magician. Summoned Skull's low DEF was even his weakness when Jounouchi played Shield and Sword. You can't bring up tribute as an argument, since we are talking about the anime, not real life. When Tribute Summon was introduced, Summoned Skull was played only twice (thrice if we count that one scene from season 4, but at that moment everyone played their monsters without following any rules).

Believe it or not, Tribute summoning was a thing, at least since the beginning of Pegasus' Tournament, players were told the tournament will have a very specific set of rules:
-Each player begins the Duel with 2000 Life Points.
-Direct attacking the opponent is not allowed.
-Only one monster is allowed to declare an attack per turn.
-Players can Normal Summon monsters of any Level without Tributing.
-When a monster is destroyed by a card effect, the controller of that card takes damage equal to half of that monster's ATK.

Rules were a secret until the participants reached the island, they were supposed adapt to them to continue. Call me a maniac, but at least half of those rules don't make sense in a game that didn't had them in the first place! The question of the million dollars is why did those rules apply to the duels Yugi had with Kaiba and Pegasus at the very beggining... Again, I watched the japanese dub with English Subs.

Sanokal
26th December 2015, 06:04 AM
The direct attacks thing wasn't applied when Kaiba dueled Yugi the first time.

Icematoro
26th December 2015, 06:38 AM
The direct attacks thing wasn't applied when Kaiba dueled Yugi the first time.

Already mentioned.



Rules were a secret until the participants reached the island, they were supposed adapt to them to continue. Call me a maniac, but at least half of those rules don't make sense in a game that didn't had them in the first place! The question of the million dollars is why did those rules apply to the duels Yugi had with Kaiba and Pegasus at the very beggining... Again, I watched the japanese dub with English Subs.

Drakylon
26th December 2015, 07:41 AM
(Same MONSTER card anyway, everyone had fucking pot of greed and Reborns....cept 5D's, only series that DIDN'T use Reborn)

I believe this is because the anime/manga has its own "banlist", or a somehow enforced list of cards banned from use (probably by Kaiba Corp or II, or the Duel Academy itself in GX's case). Note how cards such as Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity fell completely out of favor after I believe 1 and 2 seasons of GX respectively, and Raigeki are never seen past DM. Actually, characters in GX simply stopped using Graceful Charity after a season or two after spamming it for most of their duels the first couple of seasons. Interestingly, I think that banlist slightly mirrored the Forbidden lists in RL at the time, which explains why Reborn's appearances were on and off over time.

Sanokal
26th December 2015, 07:55 AM
I believe this is because the anime/manga has its own "banlist", or a somehow enforced list of cards banned from use (probably by Kaiba Corp or II, or the Duel Academy itself in GX's case). Note how cards such as Pot of Greed and Graceful Charity fell completely out of favor after I believe 1 and 2 seasons of GX respectively, and Raigeki are never seen past DM. Actually, characters in GX simply stopped using Graceful Charity after a season or two after spamming it for most of their duels the first couple of seasons. Interestingly, I think that banlist slightly mirrored the Forbidden lists in RL at the time, which explains why Reborn's appearances were on and off over time.

The banlist mirrors the current OCG I believe.

TheRamenNoodle
26th December 2015, 08:24 AM
???? That's odd, I rewatched DM entirely like 3-4 months ago (Japanese with English Subs), and I don't have any recollection of stuff like that happenning, and I usually jump to call BS on duels when a card is clearly misused.
Meh, I might have not been paying attention.

The one I can remember off the top of my head is the Yugi vs Kaiba God duel. Obelisk attacked Slifer, and Yugi activated his facedown Pot of Greed.

Sanokal
26th December 2015, 09:35 AM
Kaiba vs Yugi had Spell Sanctuary active, which allowed the activation of Spells as Quick-Plays. But the second and third anime seasons derived from the manga, where Spells COULD be activated on either player's turn. A notable example is Yami Yugi activating Monster Reborn against Yami Marik and Kaiba using Soul Exchange against Ishizu. Check out the yu-jyo.net summaries for more examples.

Never die
26th December 2015, 12:34 PM
The rules that you talk about is not the ones you mentioned,the secret rules were about how the field in which the duelists dueled gives a boost to a specific type of monster depending on the field.

KingJinzo
26th December 2015, 04:14 PM
Believe it or not, Tribute summoning was a thing, at least since the beginning of Pegasus' Tournament, players were told the tournament will have a very specific set of rules:
-Each player begins the Duel with 2000 Life Points.
-Direct attacking the opponent is not allowed.
-Only one monster is allowed to declare an attack per turn.
-Players can Normal Summon monsters of any Level without Tributing.
-When a monster is destroyed by a card effect, the controller of that card takes damage equal to half of that monster's ATK.

Rules were a secret until the participants reached the island, they were supposed adapt to them to continue. Call me a maniac, but at least half of those rules don't make sense in a game that didn't had them in the first place! The question of the million dollars is why did those rules apply to the duels Yugi had with Kaiba and Pegasus at the very beggining... Again, I watched the japanese dub with English Subs.

You made a major mistake. The anime rules in Duelist Kingdom was based on the manga, where Tribute Summon wasn't a thing until Kaiba changed the rules. Those rules in Duelist Kingdom wasn't specific only for Duelist Kingdom, they were the official rules for the whole game until Pegasus's death (in the manga). The rules you apparently copied from the wiki are in retroperspective. In retroperspective, you could play monsters without tribute, that's why the wiki listed them in the rules, but that's before Kaiba changed the rules for Battle City, especially since the Duel Disk only work with his rules. The only secret rule of the tournament was the Field Power Bonus.

Icematoro
26th December 2015, 08:12 PM
You made a major mistake. The anime rules in Duelist Kingdom was based on the manga, where Tribute Summon wasn't a thing until Kaiba changed the rules. Those rules in Duelist Kingdom wasn't specific only for Duelist Kingdom, they were the official rules for the whole game until Pegasus's death (in the manga). The rules you apparently copied from the wiki are in retroperspective. In retroperspective, you could play monsters without tribute, that's why the wiki listed them in the rules, but that's before Kaiba changed the rules for Battle City, especially since the Duel Disk only work with his rules. The only secret rule of the tournament was the Field Power Bonus.Alright, let's see how much into it you are, see you when you're done rewatching episodes 1 to 4!



So, am I to assume that he had to specify to the players he personally invited that they cannot perform actions that are already illegal in the normal game? He clearly stablishes the rules of the game at the beginning, if direct attacks and tribute summons weren't a thing from the get go, he wouldn't have mentioned them (also, you would not see pro-players like Weevil playing low-attack and low-level monsters unless they were important to advance their strategy)
Yes, I copied the list from the wikia, but only after re-watching the show -.-

KingJinzo
26th December 2015, 09:36 PM
So, am I to assume that he had to specify to the players he personally invited that they cannot perform actions that are already illegal in the normal game? He clearly stablishes the rules of the game at the beginning, if direct attacks and tribute summons weren't a thing from the get go, he wouldn't have mentioned them (also, you would not see pro-players like Weevil playing low-attack and low-level monsters unless they were important to advance their strategy)
Yes, I copied the list from the wikia, but only after re-watching the show -.-

Okay, I just rewatched the scene in episode 4 when Pegasus explained the rules. He only mentioned two rules that actually matter in the gameplay. The 2000 Life Point rule and the no-direct attacks rule. He didn't mention the other rules you listed because those are in retroperspective. Direct attacks were actually featured in Atem's first duel against Kaiba in the manga, where Atem attacked Kaiba directly with Sugoroku's Blue-Eyes and won the duel. Even back then, Tribute Summoning wasn't invented and they started with 2000 LP. Kaiba invented the Tribute Summoning rule for Battle City.

Icematoro
26th December 2015, 10:51 PM
Okay, I just rewatched the scene in episode 4 when Pegasus explained the rules. He only mentioned two rules that actually matter in the gameplay. The 2000 Life Point rule and the no-direct attacks rule. He didn't mention the other rules you listed because those are in retroperspective. Direct attacks were actually featured in Atem's first duel against Kaiba in the manga, where Atem attacked Kaiba directly with Sugoroku's Blue-Eyes and won the duel. Even back then, Tribute Summoning wasn't invented and they started with 2000 LP. Kaiba invented the Tribute Summoning rule for Battle City.

Oh hey, you actually did it! I wonder if you read the invisible text I left at the quote in my previous post. You most likely didn't, I wonder if you'll read this before pressing reply, if you even do.
Anyway, back to business, I noticed the mistake as soon as I posted the wikia list (you might have not been here to see the change at the moment, but I actually edited that post a couple of times before adding it), my guess is that I mixed the delivery of the rules of duelist kingdom and Battle city somewhere down the line, because god, before that posting that list, I could swear I read a subtitle that said "High leveled Monsters can be summoned without tributes" when I saw DM last (or Maybe the fansub I took at the time was full of shit, I don't know).

So here we are! Admitting defeat is hard, and I wasn't gonna take it without a fight, so I just kept going, and just as I expected, it didn't took long until I got you to check for yourself, that's all I needed, that's my consolation prize here.

So hey, my memory is definitely shitty when it comes to specifics, you get the win this time, you'll have to forgive me for this dumb charade, I couldn't help but doing it! Please accept this goat cat as an apology:
Is this a sad attempt to lick my wounds? Nah, believe it or not, it isn't.
http://static4.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/Cats+in+disguise+thread+_2d7c7ae4b7a7eb330ad5cfe19 9ae97f5.jpg

That said, I wasn't wrong when I said no players knew the specific rules of Duel Kingdom previous to arriving, again, the "No Direct attacks" rule wouldn't have been mentioned if that was the case, and the 2k LPs rules was said from the get go (Episode 1) that it was "Kaiba's special Ruling".

Sanokal
27th December 2015, 12:53 AM
Well said Matoro (love the name by the way).