PDA

View Full Version : Card Discussion: Raigeki



Aromaiden
23rd December 2015, 01:08 PM
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/yugioh/images/1/14/Raigeki-PGL2-EN-GUR-1E.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/300?cb=20150320145650

Spell/Normal
Destroy all monsters your opponent controls.
A card that should never have been unbanned in the first place imho, and is still just a busted card. It does nothing more than promote sacky and easy OTKs, and provides an unfair advantage to those who draw it. Do you guys share the same thoughts on this card, or do you have different opinions on it?

Hope in the Interstice
23rd December 2015, 01:15 PM
A lot of people will say that Raigeki is less powerful because of all the floating and destruction resistance running rampant in today's metagame. They are correct. However, not everything has destruction immunity and a board of Pendulums only has to be wiped once for an OTK (hence why I love Timesword Magician).

The very notion that my opponent has a Raigeki in their hand fills me with fear. Because of Raigeki, I always instantly tribute Blue-Eyes Spirit Dragon to summon Azure-Eyes Silver Dragon without even waiting for what my opponent's going to play because it's not worth the risk of Raigeki. A single well-placed Raigeki (and it's not hard to place it well) will screw over everything you're working towards. If you have a meticulous play lined up, a single Raigeki can be all it takes for it to tumble apart, as it has happened to me multiple times.

Aromaiden
23rd December 2015, 01:23 PM
From what I've seen and been told some players at tournaments even agree to side their copy of Raigeki out, just because of how sacky it is.

Hope in the Interstice
23rd December 2015, 01:29 PM
Some players at tournaments even agree to side their copy of Raigeki out, just because of how sacky it is.
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png

Aromaiden
23rd December 2015, 01:31 PM
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png
Can't exactly cite something if I have no concrete evidence (pictures, etc.). This is just me speaking from my personal experience, and discussions with other players It's also not difficult to assume this considering past trends in Yu-Gi-Oh.

Edit: I'll edit my first post so it isn't as all encompassing and general.

R3QU13M
23rd December 2015, 01:37 PM
A Buzz killer, thats all it is.

Aromaiden
23rd December 2015, 01:40 PM
A Buzz killer, thats all it is.

That's actually a good way of putting it.

KingJinzo
23rd December 2015, 03:13 PM
For me Raigeki is just a stronger version of Black Hole. Yes, Black Hole has a drawback, but a lot of people don't care about that drawback if they actually run the card in the first place. When I was building my Odd-Eyes deck, I was thinking whether I put my Raigeki from my Synchron deck into the Odd-Eyes deck. I didn't do it because of space.

LolsterXD97
23rd December 2015, 03:18 PM
This wins games when timed at the right moment, all my Decks have it. At least this isn't a BIG error like unbanning Snatch Steal for a few months...

KingJinzo
23rd December 2015, 03:20 PM
The only time Raigeki was played in the anime was brainwashed Jounouchi vs Atem/Yugi. Jounouchi played Raigeki in his first turn to destroy Big Shield Gardna, and then he attacks with Alligator's Sword directly.

Baroque
23rd December 2015, 04:08 PM
The only time Raigeki was played in the anime was brainwashed Jounouchi vs Atem/Yugi. Jounouchi played Raigeki in his first turn to destroy Big Shield Gardna, and then he attacks with Alligator's Sword directly.

One could assume this to be a case of even the author/writers realizing how particularly sacky the card was.

On the plus side, though, this means that Joey character decks have an excuse to run another card that doesn't hinge on the player having the devil's luck.

King
23rd December 2015, 04:18 PM
really worth put in any deck , it can make the tides of misery turn against your opponent and help you confirm your victories , this card deserves to stay at 1

Aromaiden
23rd December 2015, 05:59 PM
really worth put in any deck , it can make the tides of misery turn against your opponent and help you confirm your victories , this card deserves to stay at 1
It deserves to be banned imho.

BUYRAIDRAPTORS
23rd December 2015, 06:06 PM
Monsters can swarm faster than ever and a good portion of the meta either has protection, are Pendulums, or both. Raigeki is a ridiculous topdeck sometimes, I can agree on that, but unless you have your OTK preparations ready, you're stuck needing to save it when the time comes, and that may be one turn too late knowing how fast-paced the game is now. I'd say it's not really such a big deal yet.

citrus
23rd December 2015, 06:28 PM
Competitively speaking, choosing to play Raigeki at all is not a strictly obvious decision.

Consider this: It's g1 in your round, and you're playing a deck that prefers to go second. You won the dice roll, and you force your opponent to go first. Your opponent is also playing a deck that prefers to go second. In this case, the opponent does not invest too many resources immediately, and establish a minor field with one monster and two set back-row (perhaps a King of the Feral Imps, a set Solemn Warning, and a set Time-Space Trap Hole). You draw for your turn and, lo, your sixth card in hand is Raigeki, not a combo piece. You can still make your push, but your opponent has two threats set, you can't make as big of a push as you'd like, and Raigeki won't solve any real problems for you. See the issue? This example may seem too specific, but it's the exactly problem that current Pendulum decks face, and it's also why very few competitive decks choose to main Raigeki.

Also consider this: In the same round, you win g1. With knowledge of what you're both playing, your opponent chooses for you to go first g2, and now comes time to side. Would you keep Raigeki in your deck? There is absolutely no reason for you to want to draw Raigeki in your opening hand: Your opponent will not have a threatening field, so you cannot use it, and because it's not a trap card, you cannot set it, expecting to stop your opponent's play. You may want to keep it in so that you can perhaps clear his field turn 3, so that you can have an opening to push. That's reasonable, but if your opponent successfully creates a threatening field that Raigeki would be ideal for clearing, you probably wouldn't survive to turn 3 with sufficient resources to take advantage of the opening anyway. Again, specific example, but it occurs frequently enough that of the players using Raigeki, many choose to side it out.

The issue with Raigeki as a competitive card is that it's not reactive enough to deal with threats as they happen. In our present state where threats are so large that allowing them to manifest typically leads to defeat, Raigeki cannot be expected to solve any real problems when they're still worth solving. Raigeki would be ideal in a format where "annoying" fields that have threatening effects, but not necessarily threatening ATK, dominate the game. This way, your opponent's establishment of such a field does not immediately endanger you, so you have enough time to clear those threats with Raigeki and make your own plays. For this reason, some players choose to include Raigeki in their side decks, to address "annoying" monsters, like Majesty's Fiend, Vanity's Fiend, Denko Sekka, etc.

Of course, in terms of general game design, any card alone that promise gains of up to +4 card economy is ridiculous, but I think it's very interesting to see that situations exist where such inherently powerful cards do not generally perform well.

Aromaiden
23rd December 2015, 06:31 PM
Monsters can swarm faster than ever and a good portion of the meta either has protection, are Pendulums, or both. Raigeki is a ridiculous topdeck sometimes, I can agree on that, but unless you have your OTK preparations ready, you're stuck needing to save it when the time comes, and that may be one turn too late knowing how fast-paced the game is now. I'd say it's not really such a big deal yet.
That's the thing though. The game is so fast at this point that it is incredibly easily to swarm the field and gain card advantage, especially with Pendulums and such. With one card, I can literally clear your field of monsters, or at least the majority of it, without destroying any of my monsters and then proceed to OTK with them or further swarm the field.

citrus
23rd December 2015, 06:52 PM
That's the thing though. The game is so fast at this point that it is incredibly easily to swarm the field and gain card advantage, especially with Pendulums and such. With one card, I can literally clear your field of monsters, or at least the majority of it, without destroying any of my monsters and then proceed to OTK with them or further swarm the field.

Did you not read what I wrote?

Aromaiden
23rd December 2015, 07:02 PM
Did you not read what I wrote?

It wasn't there on my computer when I responded to him. Anyways I'm away from a proper computer at the moment, so I'll respond to your points later.

Volteccer
23rd December 2015, 09:18 PM
The only time Raigeki was played in the anime was brainwashed Jounouchi vs Atem/Yugi. Jounouchi played Raigeki in his first turn to destroy Big Shield Gardna, and then he attacks with Alligator's Sword directly.

That's because it's even banned in-universe. All the destruction & burn cards he used in that duel were banned for the tournament, and presumably afterward as well.

Dread Kaiser
23rd December 2015, 10:50 PM
That's because it's even banned in-universe. All the destruction & burn cards he used in that duel were banned for the tournament, and presumably afterward as well.

Mirror Force wants a word with you.

Battle city didn't ban destruction cards, though it DID have its own F/L list. all burn cards were banned and Monster reborn was limited. Raigeki was presumably on that list too
Fun fact: in-universe the Gods didn't actually need 3 tributes, the rules just had that for Lv 10+ monsters

any further lack of appearence can be chalked up to insane rarity systems they use there. anything with a Destruction effect was crazy rare in universe.

Sanokal
23rd December 2015, 11:03 PM
Mirror Force was a Trap though. Ring of Destruction is the real kicker that should raise eyebrows.

Volteccer
24th December 2015, 04:18 AM
Mirror Force was a Trap though. Ring of Destruction is the real kicker that should raise eyebrows.

Well, Kaiba probably gave it a pass because it was a card he used.

Aromaiden
24th December 2015, 04:19 AM
Sorry it took so long to respond; I've been really busy lately. ;p

Consider this: It's g1 in your round, and you're playing a deck that prefers to go second. You won the dice roll, and you force your opponent to go first. Your opponent is also playing a deck that prefers to go second. In this case, the opponent does not invest too many resources immediately, and establish a minor field with one monster and two set back-row (perhaps a King of the Feral Imps, a set Solemn Warning, and a set Time-Space Trap Hole).
As you said, this is definitely an alarmingly specific situation; almost too specific. Isolating this card to such specific situations that purposely work against the card's power and usage is basically cherry picking.


You draw for your turn and, lo, your sixth card in hand is Raigeki, not a combo piece.
It may not be a "combo piece" but it is most definitely a "power" card; that would effectively allow you to clear the majority of your opponent's field presence for nothing. You have little reason (outside of those specific scenarios) not to want to see Raigeki unless your playing a Deck similar to a Brilliant Fusion variant. In that case, it's more understandable.


it's the exactly problem that current Pendulum decks face, and it's also why very few competitive decks choose to main Raigeki.
This is downright untrue. A large percentage if not the majority of TCG decks this format main Raigeki. Where did you get this information from?


Also consider this: In the same round, you win g1. With knowledge of what you're both playing, your opponent chooses for you to go first g2, and now comes time to side. Would you keep Raigeki in your deck?
You're not even guaranteed to draw into Raigeki and even if you do so, it will provide you with an innate advantage and out to your opponent's monsters. Arguably the only downside to maining it would be you drawing it in your opening hand.


There is absolutely no reason for you to want to draw Raigeki in your opening hand
If your playing a consistent deck than you have little reason to not want to see Raigeki. If you're going first than I can see it being relatively useless (at least at that moment). Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize how similar the argument's for this card are to that of snatch steal (albeit it's not as bad)


Your opponent will not have a threatening field, so you cannot use it, and because it's not a trap card, you cannot set it, expecting to stop your opponent's play. You may want to keep it in so that you can perhaps clear his field turn 3, so that you can have an opening to push. That's reasonable, but if your opponent successfully creates a threatening field that Raigeki would be ideal for clearing, you probably wouldn't survive to turn 3 with sufficient resources to take advantage of the opening anyway.
Highlighting small weaknesses to a card through specific examples and situations doesn't make said card overall less powerful or sacky. It may put it into a somewhat different perspective but that's about it


Again, specific example, but it occurs frequently enough that of the players using Raigeki, many choose to side it out.
I made a similar statement to this originally, but mine was based more on personal experience. I would actually like a form of citation or some sort of evidence or reasoning behind how you know this. From my perspective that seems unreasonable tbh.


The issue with Raigeki as a competitive card is that it's not reactive enough to deal with threats as they happen.
Raigeki is played in the majority of this format's Decks and is basically considered a staple; it is most definitely a solid "competitive" card. It'll only get better as we move towards BOSH.


In our present state where threats are so large that allowing them to manifest typically leads to defeat
This very same logic can be applied to Raigeki.


Raigeki cannot be expected to solve any real problems when they're still worth solving.
What. If you have solely Raigeki, or if your opponent managed to OTK you (which consistently happens) then sure. On the other hand, Raigeki in itself is basically an immediate and costless answer to the majority if not all of your opponent's field presence. It can definitely help solve a couple of real problems.


"For this reason, some players choose to include Raigeki in their side decks, to address "annoying" monsters, like Majesty's Fiend, Vanity's Fiend, Denko Sekka, etc."
Very few successful competitive decks ever side Raigeki; most either run it or they don't.

Sanokal
24th December 2015, 08:11 AM
I'm gonna agree with Aromaiden on this one.

citrus
24th December 2015, 02:53 PM
Take a look through here: http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_search_result.asp?format=Advanced

You'll find that a good majority of all currently competitively successful decks choose not to main or side Raigeki. As for how I know players that main Raigeki choose to side it out, all I did was watch their deck profiles and/or talk to them. The simple fact of the matter is this: If they win g1 and they know their opponents will make them go first, they will side out Raigeki g2 to reduce the chance that they'll have a dead card in their opening hands. If they believe their opponents will go first and establish monster floodgates, they'll keep/side Raigeki in. Nobody sides Raigeki now because monster floodgates aren't popular sides right now--there's no reason to prepare for them.

I never contested that Raigeki wasn't a ridiculously powerful card, but I'm saying that given the specific circumstances of our metagame right now, Raigeki is not reliably useful, so it's not an obvious must-run card. Even decks like Kozmos have shed Raigeki, despite the deck thriving against open fields, specifically because of the reasons I stated previously.

I won't counter your specific arguments, because you don't seem to base your claims on actual competitive results. In fact, I'd love to see where your evidence came from for your sweeping claims. ("Very few successful competitive decks ever side Raigeki; most either run it or they don't." Really? What about all the decks earlier this year, when Majesty's Vanity's were in every BA side, and not killing them meant losing?) I will say that Raigeki will almost certainly be worse post-BOSH, where the prevalence of counter traps means decks need more ways to either make plays happen or protect the plays they already have. Raigeki doesn't make plays happen: Summoning your monsters into a Solemn Notice right after you cleared their field with Raigeki doesn't do anything for you. What's Raigeki going to do for you when you're staring down Infinity and Rafflesia, backed by 3 back row?

In any case, it doesn't seem to me that you've looked at Raigeki's place in today's competitive landscape, and it doesn't seem like you're willing to look much further than what you've already seen. There's no point in me continuing to argue against you.

P.S.: You can't even compare Snatch Steal to Raigeki. Raigeki only removes threats. Snatch Steal removes a threat AND simultaneously creates one. I Raigeki your Valkyrus? Okay, it's off the field. I Snatch your Valkyrus? Now I get to hit you with 2900 and draw a card. The swing in momentum that Snatch Steal alone is capable of is miles ahead of what Raigeki can do on its own.

Aromaiden
24th December 2015, 03:01 PM
In any case, it doesn't seem to me that you've looked at Raigeki's place in today's competitive landscape, and it doesn't seem like you're willing to look much further than what you've already seen. There's no point in me continuing to argue against you.
Cool bruh. I was just having a reasonable discussion. No reason to continue if you're just going to behave this way. smh.


The swing in momentum that Snatch Steal alone is capable of is miles ahead of what Raigeki can do on its own.
Clearly stated that by the way.

Dyson Sphere
2nd January 2016, 05:46 PM
not really that OP i could see it going to 2

Sanokal
2nd January 2016, 07:51 PM
not really that OP i could see it going to 2

Sometimes I don't know whether you're a troll or an idiot.

Volteccer
2nd January 2016, 08:27 PM
One-sided boardwipe spells are never bad. Pendulum/indestructible or no, it still packs quite the punch.

Dyson Sphere
3rd January 2016, 04:49 AM
Sometimes I don't know whether you're a troll or an idiot.

the former

Acetraker
4th January 2016, 12:39 AM
There is a simple game's design balancing at work here.

Mass Removal e,g.
Raigeki / Dark Hole are not banned when summoning monsters is easy. Additional factors also help.

Harpie's FD and Heavy Storm are not banned when monster summoning is hard to do.

This is the internal games design logic tcg uses and in my view is far better than ocg's external logic.

The reason for this is to prevent out of nowhere changes in advantage, one turn kills or game stalling.

These cards have inverse relationship to how the game is played.

Pendulum
4th January 2016, 04:52 PM
not really that OP i could see it going to 2

If I didn't know you are a troll, I would advise you to fix your eyesight.

I've lost countless duels because of that card.

Acetraker
7th January 2016, 10:06 PM
If I didn't know you are a troll, I would advise you to fix your eyesight.

I've lost countless duels because of that card.

And your point is. that is raigeki's or mass removals purpose. to punish overextension without any protection.

You can not like it but it is "cry me a river" in the terms of the overall game / number of duels played. I could easily see dark hole 3 raigeki 2 in the right format/gamestate. This comes back to the point some people really have a pole stuck somewhere about "loosing" a duel like it is the end of their life.