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View Full Version : So I played vs Liberating Ariadne + Ultimate Providence + Solemn Notice...



Jolan
3rd January 2016, 11:42 AM
WHO EVEN THOUGHT
it would be a GOOD idea
to release these 3 cards in the same set...

Solemn Notice is already a pain due to it being a Warning 0.8 but at 3 instead of 1, Providence has a decent cost but none of that matters when Ariadne is there to make it so you don't have to discard cards or pay LP for Counter Traps.

And it's even a Pendulum monster, at 3, that can search for any counter trap you want once it dies, even from the Pendulum Zone. Right, sure, the opponent picks which card but showing someone triple Providence is the definition of false choice.

Couple that with Clash of the Dracorivals giving consistency in getting out Luster Pendulum or Master Pendulum, Wavering Eyes to search your own Ariadne, and the fact that pendulum monsters can't be permanently destroyed since they just hit the Extra deck, and there's so little counterplay. Whatever I do, it's temporary.

Is there any hope for the TCG after BOSH, because even tho Providence and Notice are both Secret Rares, I fully expect someone to just make Ariadne.deck and run 3 of each???

Baroque
3rd January 2016, 12:00 PM
WHO EVEN THOUGHT
it would be a GOOD idea
to release these 3 cards in the same set...
Konami of America thought it'd be a good idea -- to make Providence.

Originally it was just the mildly questionable choice of Notice and Ariadne together on the OCG's part, but then Konami of America apparently decided it'd be a good idea to come up with a card like that in the same pack that gives us an effect to make it costless.

Perhaps the mentality of 'but they need Ariadne out for that to be the case' could be applied, but there's a big difference between Divine Punishment (which needs the specific card [Sanctuary in the Sky] to be even activated) and Providence (which only needs you to pay a cost of the same type of card that you're trying to negate, which unlike Punishment's case can be played around much more freely) that makes that kind of notion fall short of sensible.

Truth be told, there's no way of knowing what brought on the card unless we actually got in touch with whomever designed it/R&D/whatever, but what we do know is that it's more than a little wonky.

As an aside, is it just me or would a lot of Ariadne's balance issues be solved by giving Ariadne a condition by which all the monsters on your side of the field or your Graveyard (as in both of them) need to be Fairy-type for her to get the effect (EDIT: effect in general, not just the monster one!)? I mean, that way it'd limit her to just the series she was intended for (the Counter Fairies).

Volteccer
3rd January 2016, 02:54 PM
Providence negates basically everything. The last card to do that was Solemn Judgement, and look what happened to that: it got banned, even with the major cost of half your life points.

No counter trap should be that flexible.

Jolan
3rd January 2016, 03:03 PM
Providence negates basically everything. The last card to do that was Solemn Judgement, and look what happened to that: it got banned, even with the major cost of half your life points.

No counter trap should be that flexible.

Don't get me wrong - I don't mind Providence strictly. It has a clear cost, monster discard for monster, etc. It doesn't stop summons, just activations of effects, meaning it's no Solemn Judgement. You also need to keep cards in your hand just so you can activate it, meaning you have to do thinking - should I play this spell or keep it as a way to pay for Providence, in case I want to stop my opponent's spell card?

But the fact that you can easily avoid the cost is a major issue for me. Not to mention that it's done via a Pendulum (read: recyclable) monster, which also searches you 1 of your 3 copies of Providence when popped.

On it's own I see it as okay but the potential of combining it with Ariadne and Solemn Notice, who by some insane coincidence are coming out in the same Booster Set that is definitely going to sell a lot, is far too much for my liking.

That's why I wanted to hear the opinion of others, am I overreacting or am I onto something here?

Baroque
3rd January 2016, 03:18 PM
That's why I wanted to hear the opinion of others, am I overreacting or am I onto something here?

Dunno about 'onto something', but you certainly ain't blowin' smoke -- it is a rather questionable decision. Were it released at any time prior to Ariadne's pack, I'm sure none of us would be quite so critical of it as a card, but suffice it to say Ariadne being a card in the pack really colors it funny.

As an aside, would Providence be a good choice for Majespecters? What with all the fetches and all, and the ability to recycle pretty much whatever you end up paying it with.

TheRamenNoodle
3rd January 2016, 07:03 PM
Annoying as it is, Providence, by itself, is worse version of Magic Jammer, Wiretap, and Divine Wrath. Obviously, it is a bit more flexible in what it can negate. Sure, it can be searched with Adriane, and also have it's cost mitigated by Adriane as a scale, but that is unreliable. I almost want to compare this to Sanctuary in the Sky + Divine Punishment in Agent decks - nobody decent runs them. But I suppose it is a bit different.

Ultimate Providence is not the problem here, it's an Adraine/Notice problem. While Adraine is comparable to Plushfire, she certainly is a lot less abusable by the sheer fact that she is not supported by an amazing card a la Damage Juggler. Without that support, decks built around Adraine is... sacky, at best. Sure, it is very annoying when they pull it off, but they really don't pull it off that often as you might expect. Of course, if you're playing EmEm//Whateveryoucallit, you would probably lose regardless, with or without Adraine. That being said, I don't necessarily agree with Adraine's dumb design.

The card that is the true problem is Solemn Notice. A card that powerful should be limited, perhaps even banned, with or without it being searchable in some decks.

Acetraker
4th January 2016, 12:24 AM
Simple play royal decree / twin twister / dust tornado's or other stuff. The deck is annoying not really meta. As countering things isn't improving your game state it's just slowing your opponents. What the era of decks like Pe-Pe are too fast / more consistent and furthering your game state is more important now than ever before.

Side note dumb ruling question but wouldn't Ultimate Providence not work with the pend. It says discard type to negate. If you discard nothing, you negate nothing. I'm prob wrong.

Jolan
4th January 2016, 01:07 AM
Simple play royal decree / twin twister / dust tornado's or other stuff.
Providence negates Royal Decree/Twin Twister/Dust Tornado.
Providence is searchable via Ariadne and costs nothing via Ariadne.
Neither of the ones you listed are searchable.

It's really not as simple as it seems.

Amaryllis
4th January 2016, 01:11 AM
Providence negates basically everything. The last card to do that was Solemn Judgement, and look what happened to that: it got banned, even with the major cost of half your life points.

No counter trap should be that flexible.

It actually doesn't negate everything per se. It can't negate effects of face-up Spells and Traps; only their initial activation. Still, it's pretty dirty. Not banworthy though.

Acetraker
4th January 2016, 01:23 AM
Providence negates Royal Decree/Twin Twister/Dust Tornado.
Providence is searchable via Ariadne and costs nothing via Ariadne.
Neither of the ones you listed are searchable.

It's really not as simple as it seems.

An this comes down to the fact you have to not be so confused by the draw fallacy.

Mistake exists to prevent searches as do other cards. Vacuum logic is bad times and causes too many arguments in the community. Also I'm not sure if ariadne and providence even work together. It's says send type card to negate same type. The pend just make is so you don't have to discard. My internal logic would suggest that if you discard nothing if possible you would negate nothing.

I could be wrong.

Jolan
4th January 2016, 01:46 AM
An this comes down to the fact you have to not be so confused by the draw fallacy.

Mistake exists to prevent searches as do other cards. Vacuum logic is bad times and causes too many arguments in the community. Also I'm not sure if ariadne and providence even work together. It's says send type card to negate same type. The pend just make is so you don't have to discard. My internal logic would suggest that if you discard nothing if possible you would negate nothing.

I could be wrong.

Again, even with Mistake, isn't it a case of ''solid counter that is unsearchable'' vs ''card combo that is searchable and also negates said counter'' ? Whoever gets his first, wins?

But yes, I also thought you had to discard the appropriate type but it seems that on YGOPro, with Ariadne saying that ''you dont have to discard'', it's ruled as paying a cost and ariadne removing said cost.

Acetraker
4th January 2016, 02:06 AM
Again, even with Mistake, isn't it a case of ''solid counter that is unsearchable'' vs ''card combo that is searchable and also negates said counter'' ? Whoever gets his first, wins?

But yes, I also thought you had to discard the appropriate type but it seems that on YGOPro, with Ariadne saying that ''you dont have to discard'', it's ruled as paying a cost and ariadne removing said cost.

You can't trust ygo pro or dev pro to get effects right. looks at igknights + key beetle + many others. Also again you are thinking in vacuum the game is not a vacuum, actual real world games disprove the "it's searchable" as valid points. Basically anything is possible but thinking possible outcomes have merit is a fallacy. As experience is fact, possible outcomes are imaginary an biased due to being unmeasurable.

I'm not saying these cards aren't powerful they are. However they are not really that great in the context of a real world format. As a result of many factors.

Some people seem to dislike cards that function in statistical ways even though those cards aren't actually op in the context of the game itself.

Baroque
4th January 2016, 06:11 AM
My internal logic would suggest that if you discard nothing if possible you would negate nothing.

I could be wrong.
You would be, actually; there's nothing in the card that would imply discarding nothing would make you negate nothing, and I'll break it down to show why.

"When a Spell/Trap Card, or monster effect, is activated:" This qualifies you to activate it in these instances. You could see it as determining what you're going to be paying, if only because you're paying a cost of whatever type of card you're using Providence to go after.
"Discard the same type of card (Monster, Spell, or Trap);" This is the cost you pay to activate the card itself. Ariadne allows you to ignore this.
"negate the activation, and if you do, destroy that card." This is the effect, which has no indicator as to whether the specific card discarded has any bearing on the end result -- you're merely paying the cost to negate the activation of the card or effect, no more and no less.

The usual way to cause what you're thinking of would be to bundle the discard into the effect (a dangerous proposition in its own right) and slap an ', and if you do,' between the discard and the activation negation (the 'destroy that card' would possibly be attached with perhaps an 'also').

Pendulum
4th January 2016, 05:16 PM
I don't want to be involved in a serious discussion here. I'm just gonna say every card has counters. That doesn't necessarily make them less powerful.
The Solemn Traps are some of the most disrupting cards there due to their versatility. Also, they are Spell Speed 3. Ariadne just made them searchable and costless. And Providence is Solemn-like. It negates every type of effect. Sure, you need to have the right type on your hand. But nowadays, the majority of the decks have a lot of monsters. That means your deck will probably have too. That means you will be able, at least, to easily counter your opponent's monster effects, just like they will be able to counter yours.

Sure, you can build your deck to counter those specific cards, but how will your deck counter other cards? And how will you have space to work on your strategy. Besides, your opponent may also have counters to your counters.
Three providence + three Notice + Warning + three Ariadne + three Wavering will be a hard deck to deal with.
And you can't just destroy Ariadne, because it will get its effects. So what will be the solution? Ignister? Castel? Those are good solutions, until you find your opponent has a set Solemn/Providence.

MystikX
7th January 2016, 01:19 PM
Is there any hope for the TCG after BOSH, because even tho Providence and Notice are both Secret Rares, I fully expect someone to just make Ariadne.deck and run 3 of each???

Nope. This is why I'm taking a break from this game to focus on Vanguard and Pokémon TCG, and also the reason I opted to Judge the Boston Regionals next weekend instead of participate, since it's the first Regionals that BOSH will be legal.

I just refuse to play in a triple Notice, Ptloemaus/Infinity format.

Acetraker
7th January 2016, 09:19 PM
You would be, actually; there's nothing in the card that would imply discarding nothing would make you negate nothing, and I'll break it down to show why.

"When a Spell/Trap Card, or monster effect, is activated:" This qualifies you to activate it in these instances. You could see it as determining what you're going to be paying, if only because you're paying a cost of whatever type of card you're using Providence to go after.
"Discard the same type of card (Monster, Spell, or Trap);" This is the cost you pay to activate the card itself. Ariadne allows you to ignore this.
"negate the activation, and if you do, destroy that card." This is the effect, which has no indicator as to whether the specific card discarded has any bearing on the end result -- you're merely paying the cost to negate the activation of the card or effect, no more and no less.

The usual way to cause what you're thinking of would be to bundle the discard into the effect (a dangerous proposition in its own right) and slap an ', and if you do,' between the discard and the activation negation (the 'destroy that card' would possibly be attached with perhaps an 'also').

Thank you for explaining it to me, as it makes me a better player.

The problem with this card I think is not it effect. It is a really powerful card. The issue with the card is the deck it is played in. Current meta namely ocg stopped using them. The main reason why they did this is a game mechanic reason. current formats require decks to further their game state. Negating cards NEVER furthers your game state by the act of negating. It just slows your opponents. What CAN lead to your game state being furthered in the right deck. An sometimes you can brute force through someone's negations. What has been the key reason why that play has dropped from being play. It becomes an issue when your opponent can have more negations than your ability to deal with them. However current formats support increasing what your deck does best more extensively rather than limiting what your opponent does.

Wondering if the possible eventuality of Draco/Ariadne will be a thing to come as it might answer my point. it being the right deck for these cards. However time will tell.

clairedestroyer!
8th January 2016, 06:52 AM
The issue is there's way more impactful stuff you can do with Dracos than hitting Ariadne, getting a trap and then passing.

Why would I play traps that can be played through and don't replace themselves when I could just game you instead?

The perfect field of Ariadne+multiple backrow where you also make a meaningful play yourself so there's actual pressure to win the game instead of just dismantling that board and slow rolling into your face are pretty low. Ariadne is relatively unsearchable for a Pendulum. Draco is somewhat, but remember that Face-Off is still a 50% chance of just putting Vector on the field and wasting a Draco by dumping it in the extra. Additionally, every trap you have is a card that's taking combo pieces away from you. Ariadne isn't threatening unless you can also Pendulum Summon to make your own advancement on the game and traps don't help with that at all.