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Thread: Bottomless Trap Hole vs Norden

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    Registered User Indytotof's Avatar
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    Answered: Bottomless Trap Hole vs Norden

    Hello the Org !

    In duel between my Red-Eyes Nekroz deck and my opponent deck, I've summon Norden via Instant Fusion. Norden's effect then activate. Then my opponent chain BTH.

    Or there is a problem regarding BTH's wording. I quote:

    When your opponent Summons a monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK: Destroy that monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK, and if you do, banish it.
    The card specify "When". It means that the monster's summon should be the last thing it happen to trigger BTH's effect right ?

    So technically, BTH should have miss the timing since Norden's summon wasn't the last thing that occur but Norden's effect to summon another monster from my grave.

    Or maybe I miss something ?

    A little enlightenment for a duelist that is lost in his favorite card game's ruling ?

    Thanks a lot for the help !

  2. "Just activating an effect isn't going to make things miss timing. RESOLVING an effect would do that.

    Bottomless can be chained to Nordens effect, otherwise EVERYTHING that activated on summon would be bottomless-proof"


  3. #2
    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    Just activating an effect isn't going to make things miss timing. RESOLVING an effect would do that.

    Bottomless can be chained to Nordens effect, otherwise EVERYTHING that activated on summon would be bottomless-proof
    I don't have a Problem, I have a Hobby.

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    Registered User Indytotof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dread Kaiser View Post
    Just activating an effect isn't going to make things miss timing. RESOLVING an effect would do that.

    Bottomless can be chained to Nordens effect, otherwise EVERYTHING that activated on summon would be bottomless-proof
    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh

    Thanks for the enlightenment.

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    Registered User SynjoDeonecros's Avatar
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    Yeah. Also, remember: if When... isn't followed by You Can..., it means that it's mandatory and cannot miss the timing. If it does, then it's optional and thus CAN miss the timing. BTH is the former, not the latter, so it doesn't miss the timing.
    "Is it so important that you win one last argument with him?"
    "No, it is not, but it is true that I will miss the arguments; they were, finally, all that we had."

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    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SynjoDeonecros View Post
    Yeah. Also, remember: if When... isn't followed by You Can..., it means that it's mandatory and cannot miss the timing. If it does, then it's optional and thus CAN miss the timing. BTH is the former, not the latter, so it doesn't miss the timing.
    No, bottomless CAN miss timing. its optional by the fact that you CAN activate the card to begin with. Mandatory effects really only apply to cards that are already face-up.

    for example, when Drill warrior returns to the field, it summons itself THEN adds a card from grave to hand. you cannot activate bottomless because the last action was the grave retrieval
    I don't have a Problem, I have a Hobby.

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    Registered User SynjoDeonecros's Avatar
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    I think that's wrong, because I'm sure that activated cards from the hand can't activate if it's When... you can..., but they can if it's just When...
    "Is it so important that you win one last argument with him?"
    "No, it is not, but it is true that I will miss the arguments; they were, finally, all that we had."

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    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SynjoDeonecros View Post
    I think that's wrong, because I'm sure that activated cards from the hand can't activate if it's When... you can..., but they can if it's just When...
    Well, ya think wrong.

    http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Card_Ru...less_Trap_Hole
    Note that there is an entire section dedicated to "Missing the timing"
    Drill Warrior: "Drill Warrior" is Special Summoned during the Standby Phase, and afterwards you add a card to your hand. The two are not treated as resolving simultaneously. Thus, "Bottomless Trap Hole" cannot be activated; you miss the timing since you add a card to your hand after "Drill Warrior" is Special Summoned.[10]
    Bottomless is an optional effect for the purposes of timing, for the simple reason that it is a normal trap

    ANY card you can CHOOSE to activate is optional by its very nature of you being able to choose whether or not you activate it. its packaged differently but its basically the same thing.

    BTW, all of this applies to any summon reaction trap/Raf
    I don't have a Problem, I have a Hobby.

  9. #8
    Registered User SynjoDeonecros's Avatar
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    Huh. Well, okay, then. My bad. Doesn't seem like it should be like that, but whatever, I'm not the one making the rulings for these cards...
    "Is it so important that you win one last argument with him?"
    "No, it is not, but it is true that I will miss the arguments; they were, finally, all that we had."

  10. #9
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    To expand on Trap Cards missing the timing, Mandatory effects can't miss timing because they're mandatory; They have to happen. The activation of a Spell/Trap card is never Mandatory, because you choose if you want to activate it. For example, if I have BTH set, and my opponent Summons Altair, I don't have to activate it, I can leave it Set to, say, snare their Deneb.

    In fact, I think its impossible in the current game for a card which isn't in Public Knowledge to have a mandatory effect.

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    Registered User Indytotof's Avatar
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    Since enlightenement have been given, this thread can be lock.

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