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Thread: the R*NK Debate

  1. #1
    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    the R*NK Debate

    ok moving this shitstorm over here before the Wrath of Cheese (or worse, Eva) comes on my head

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuuri View Post
    Can we not see the "storm?" Because contrary to popular belief, we see it quite often. Watching the "storm" is like watching a train wreck.
    Yes but you don't see Dread-Brand storms anymore
    wait do you not normally crack out the popcorn for trainwrecks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erickdsl View Post
    Of course they dont stand a chance against the decks that use the rank-7 toolbox i mentioned, but the reason isnt the rank-7 monsters, that's my point (except for the red-eyes deck, all the three decks i mentioned are arguably faster and more consistent than the red-eyes deck , unfortunately). The water deck rarely needs to summon rank-7's even though they have access to one of the best of them, and OPM can do so much stuff the rank-7's is just one of them, hardly their win condition.

    My point isnt the decks themselves, because of course OPM is far better than something like hieratics but the versatility of the toolboxes themselves. Also i forgot to mention their ability to make rank-6's and utopia beyond + OEPD is a 2 card otk.

    I believe that if you put a deck whose entire win condition is the rank-7 spam against a deck whose entire win condition is the rank-6 spam and they theoretically have the same speed, the rank-6 spam would have the advantage because it can do much more stuff.
    oook, let the fun begin
    anyone, Rank 7 spamming decks > rank 6 spamming ones. there is no arguing that one right?
    Of course they dont stand a chance against the decks that use the rank-7 toolbox i mentioned,
    Nope, no arguing that one. Obviously ignoring the fact that the 2 best R7NK users are Dead and irrelevant (rulers and Mermails, respectively)

    so ignoring the deck and engines entirely from now on

    anyway, so you say that all else being equal, 6>7 because they have "more stuff". so counting only generic conditions in generic R6NK deck (fuck off infinity, no Astral Force, beatrice assumes not having a deck of BA to mill or a dante to detach etc) but assuming you have some generic card required to use the card in question (a Number in Grave for Atlandis, a Vanilla spellcaster for Ebon Illusion, etc)

    Beatrice, point Mill, floats into a 2800 Untargetable beater (assuming Pilgrim Dante is around to float into)
    M7, bounces from either side of field or grave
    Gauntlet Launcher, pops 2 cards
    Number 72, Shogi Rook. Pops 2 cards, halves damage for the turn
    Number 25 and Strike Bounzer. Already covered those, so to quote: Force focus is just garbage, a veiler for Lv5+ monsters and directly competes with Strike Bounzer, which can negate any monster effect (including xyz), does so without targetting and deals damage in exchange for not destroying it. all for 100 less ATK. and unlike Veiler you have to have these on the board before whatever you want to negate more often then not. Reactionary effects usually not good.
    So I want to just ignore that Focus Force exists since Strike Bounzer outclasses it completely, but I guess Continous effects are things so if you really need an out to Blackwing Armor Master or something...
    Ingunar, unrespondable mass bounce, takes 3 lv 6s so its actually hard to summon on command (which is the point of a toolbox, so I'm not sure this should even be here, If I count this I'm going to have to count hard to use R7NK's too)
    Utopia beyond, mass ATK drop, basically crippling entire fields

    and for R7NK
    FUCKING BIG EYE: Needs no introduction
    Dracosack, same
    Red-eyes Flare Metal, Ignoring the Red-eyes summoning effect
    Ebon Illusion Magician, summons Vanilla beater from hand or deck (Assuming The Dark Magician) banishes a card when said vanilla attacks
    Absolute Dragon " floats into: A recursive 3K beater, a Battle Phase effect monster lock (fuck you Lightning), a Compulse/Quasar. With more to come in the future. Til then its a better utopia. again nothing else can do anything like that." (assuming you have the other Odd-eyes's to float into
    Number 74, Not!Once per turn targeting negation that blows up anycard, non-targetting

    and if I'm counting something like Inguanar then I'm counting:
    Number C6: Non destructive removal w/ power-up
    CXZ Barian: fucking big, potentially REALLY fucking big, copies Number Effects (Big Eye)

    Honorable mention Number 7: potentially really big with 3 1/6 chances of wiping the field or activating Graceful Charity. but unreliable so....

    so thats: (counting Monsters themselves and their "Tools" seperately, that is to say similar effects will be listed together while multiple effects will be counted seperately)

    Point Mill (Beatrice)
    Float into Untargetable Beater (Beatrice)
    2 cards that Pop 2 cards, one only hits monsters, one must hit a face up monster and facedown Backrow. (Shogi and Launcher)
    2 Dressed up Vielers (Bounzer and Focus Force)
    an Unstoppable Mass bounce (that is hard to drop) (Inguanar)
    And Beyond

    7 monsters, 2 of which have near identical uses to another on the list
    so I'm counting 6 tools, one of which is rather unwieldy, I miss anything?

    VS

    Supped up Change of Heart x2 (Big eye)
    Pops 2 cards (OPT and needs a tribute, which it provides)
    Summons Tribute/Synchro Fodder
    Indestructable 2800 Beater (Flare Metal)
    that Burn 5 everytime an effect is used. (Flare Metal)
    2500 Beater that summons another 2500 Beater (or 2900 if Cosmo Queen is used) (Ebon Illusion)
    banishes any card when said beater attacks (Ebon Illusion)
    Non targetting destruction anytime something tries to target him, not once per turn
    Gets Really Big (Barian and C6)
    Copies dead Numbers (Barian)
    Really big Non-destructive removal (C6)

    8 Monsters, 11 tools. only one of which shares functions

    I believe that if you put a deck whose entire win condition is the rank-7 spam against a deck whose entire win condition is the rank-6 spam and they theoretically have the same speed, the rank-6 spam would have the advantage because it can do much more stuff.
    8 Monsters to 7, or 11 Distinct Effects to 6. So I can now objectively state that Rank 7 is more versatile than Rank 6 and that, by your own admission would win as "they can do more stuff".
    All using generic monsters, if we started to include Type or Attribute locked monsters like Evolzar Solda, I would have to do the same for R7NK and bring in Abyssgaios

    Now if you do not agree with how I listed this, here is the reasoning, using actual Tools as an analogy.
    The Swiss Army Knife (say Dracosack) comes with more then multiple tools with multiple uses
    cards that pop (Shogi and Launcher) are 2 different types of screwdriver, same function minor difference in what they are used on.

    Now in the context of an actual head to head fight on how these toolboxes would go, Obviously its up to player skill and deck, but just looking at this R7NK has the advantage since Flare Metal and Master of Blades laugh at half the toolbox

    oh and inB4 "Tl;dr"
    Last edited by Dread Kaiser; 13th May 2016 at 02:31 AM.
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  2. #2
    Registered User Erickdsl's Avatar
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    Well, for the shogi warrior/ gauntlet launcher, you put them in the same tool as if they do the same and can only be used in the same situation, when in fact they have its uses in diferent situations same with bounzer and force focus, yes focus is bad compared to bounzer, but continuous effects (like dark law) are a thing and focus can help with that, not to mention bounzer has a burn effect that if you drop late-game can give you the win just like flare metal, but worse, but considering that most effects activate on field and usually most decks removal effects are based on monsters effects and field monster effects to be more precise, it can count as a tool just like flare metal's burn. Also you forgot m7. And if you are really considering all the options, excluding non-generic monsters, you have c73 (honest for all monsters), sword breaker (a catastor that can actually be pretty good against kozmo), and inzektor exa-beetle (can become big and have a non-destruction removal). There's also the new dude number 24, but i dont know if it counts.

    As for the rank-7's: c6 and barian are as hard to drop as ingunar, i think this is worthy mentioning. Also the barian's copying effect is as situational as number 6's effect, if you consider one a tool, the other one should qualify as well. And the reason i excluded non-generic monsters is because the only work in specific decks so, for me ebon illusion magician doesnt qualify because he only works in OPM or dark magician decks.

    So, for me we have 12 monsters, 15 tools (disconsidering the new number 24) against 7 monsters and 9 tools. So even if you want to put focus = bounzer and shogi = launcher, there are 13 tools.

  3. #3
    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erickdsl View Post
    Well, for the shogi warrior/ gauntlet launcher, you put them in the same tool as if they do the same and can only be used in the same situation, when in fact they have its uses in diferent situations same with bounzer and force focus, yes focus is bad compared to bounzer, but continuous effects (like dark law) are a thing and focus can help with that, not to mention bounzer has a burn effect that if you drop late-game can give you the win just like flare metal, but worse, but considering that most effects activate on field and usually most decks removal effects are based on monsters effects and field monster effects to be more precise, it can count as a tool just like flare metal's burn. Also you forgot m7. And if you are really considering all the options, excluding non-generic monsters, you have c73 (honest for all monsters), sword breaker (a catastor that can actually be pretty good against kozmo), and inzektor exa-beetle (can become big and have a non-destruction removal). There's also the new dude number 24, but i dont know if it counts.

    As for the rank-7's: c6 and barian are as hard to drop as ingunar, i think this is worthy mentioning. Also the barian's copying effect is as situational as number 6's effect, if you consider one a tool, the other one should qualify as well. And the reason i excluded non-generic monsters is because the only work in specific decks so, for me ebon illusion magician doesnt qualify because he only works in OPM or dark magician decks.

    So, for me we have 12 monsters, 15 tools (disconsidering the new number 24) against 7 monsters and 9 tools. So even if you want to put focus = bounzer and shogi = launcher, there are 13 tools.
    for R6NK, I only stuck with what you listed yourself earlier. and forgot M7, somehow....probably accidently deleted it when I was rewriting that whole thing....bringing my list from 8 monsters, 8 tools (recovery and removal.)

    I Did not count Bounzers burn since it isn't a seperate effect, If I had to list every use of the tools then dracosack alone would have made the list. further you while you can drop him late game to pressure your opponent like flare metal, unlike Flare metal you have no guarantee that it will go off. with Flare metal, unless you were stupid enough to summon it when they had a bigger monster already, WILL trigger at least once 99% of the time. though of course 99% isn't 100% and you will notice I didn't list Flare metal as a cowboy substitute Either

    for Shogi/Launcher, I don't know about you, but whenever I used Shogi, I used him to pop monsters (with the backrow as a bonus). now if you want to tell me you primarily use it for popping backrow thats nice, but lets face it removing a monster is infinitely more valuable then removing a face-down backrow (unless we want to start debating the value of a mystery backrow card, could be fun), so yes I consider them to perform the same basic function.

    I also wouldn't have counted number 6 as I feel he just doesn't bring enough to the table to be worth it, but if you want it in so be it.

    for force Focus......I don't even run him in my R6NK using decks

    for Ebon, I included him and the caveat to "assume you had whatever it needed" because I have actually seen him be toolboxed outside of OPM and Dark Magician Decks. Ditto with C6 (You cannot imagine what I felt when I saw FUCKING BLACKWINGS go into him and eat my Red Nova Dragon, then beat over Abyss) and as I mentioned I have never seen anyone play Ingunar (and I have seen people play crazy shit), coupled with lack of IRL deck that can toolbox him effectively, is why I marked that against him and not the Comparable R7NKS

    and yes Disregarding Number 24 (Not out yet), my count is
    R6NK 12 Monsters, 13 Tools
    R7NK 8 monsters, 11 tools.
    Gratz, you have 2 more tool and it took 4 more monsters to do it. still points to R7NK being more versatile.

    Now would be where I would love to go into the individual power of the tools........but that'd go on forever and goes without saying really (Big. Eye.)

    Kinda disappointed that no one else has joined in, this kind of shit is more fun with more people
    I don't have a Problem, I have a Hobby.

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    Registered User Yuuri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dread Kaiser View Post
    Yes but you don't see Dread-Brand storms anymore
    wait do you not normally crack out the popcorn for trainwrecks?
    You're right. I don't see your storms very often. But it's something I prefer not to see, as most storms either do not involve me or aren't worth my time. Also, thank you for taking my suggestion and starting a different thread where you can debate all you want and still be on topic.

    Only on DevPro do I get Kettle Corn and watch the crap hit the fan. Hilarity ensues after an argument is dragged on long enough that one of the players get kicked from the server.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dread Kaiser View Post
    Kinda disappointed that no one else has joined in, this kind of shit is more fun with more people
    I would, but all my joints ache. Plus, you seem to be doing a fine job all by yourself. I haven't had the time to look at or review all the Rank6/7s, nor have I thought of decks that can actually utilize the Rank 6/7 monsters. Perhaps I'll form a formidable argument on how I believe Rank 7s are far more superior than Rank 6 tomorrow. I am too tired to write a wall of text tonight. (+5 points if anyone gets the reference.)
    Last edited by Yuuri; 13th May 2016 at 05:12 AM.
    Currently using: Predator Plant, Pendulum Magician, Zarc Magician, Red-Eyes Interested in: Magibullet, Altergiest, Vullet(?)

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    I mean you've more or less addressed everything in a general sense, maybe missing a few nuances, but it's pretty clear that R7NK is overall better than R6NK, in terms of generics.

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    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNfiniTe Se7eNz View Post
    I mean you've more or less addressed everything in a general sense, maybe missing a few nuances, but it's pretty clear that R7NK is overall better than R6NK, in terms of generics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuuri View Post
    You're right. I don't see your storms very often. But it's something I prefer not to see, as most storms either do not involve me or aren't worth my time. Also, thank you for taking my suggestion and starting a different thread where you can debate all you want and still be on topic.

    Only on DevPro do I get Kettle Corn and watch the crap hit the fan. Hilarity ensues after an argument is dragged on long enough that one of the players get kicked from the server.

    I would, but all my joints ache. Plus, you seem to be doing a fine job all by yourself. I haven't had the time to look at — or review — all the Rank6/7s, nor have I thought of decks that can actually utilize the Rank 6/7 monsters. Perhaps I'll form a formidable argument on how I believe Rank 7s are far more superior than Rank 6 tomorrow. I am too tired to write a wall of text tonight. (+5 points if anyone gets the reference.)
    Yer no fun....

    maybe I should try starting actual discussion threads sometime..
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    Alright, let's talk about R8NK.

    No. 38: Spell negation, and a few attack involving gimmicks. If an opponent doesn't have a beater, realistically the redirect isn't going to come into play, and mass removal (and non destructive removal) is too prevalent for the ATK increase effect.
    Aegaion: Gimmicky Extra Deck destruction with possibility of relatively low ATK and non-targeting destruction.
    GEFAPD: Point removal (limited to faceups).
    No. 95: Technically a R9NK, but is summoned by stacking atop a R8NK Galaxy-Eyes. Double attacker (on monsters). Some milling/deck destruction utility (if you're playing dragons).
    No. 23: At the cost of ATK, it features direct attacking, targeted monster destruction on battle damage, and non-destructive negation.
    No. 87: At 3 materials, its effects are not worth the investment required. I don't think there are any plants with notable flip effects, ATK gain is VERY modest, and preventing activation of a S/T temporarily is meh, especially with all the counter traps.
    No. 62: It's a beater. Does half battle damage.
    Felgrand: Quick effect that can either actively negate or protect monsters.
    No. 107: Mass monster negate (permanent), but only at the start of your BP, and potential multiattack.
    Coach King: Draw 3 and reveal, burn 800 for each monster, but skip BP. Requires 3 material.
    No. 15: SS monster targeted destruction, potential to burn, but really crappy ATK.
    NGEPD: VERY situational ATK gain/multiattack.
    Heliopolis: Costly mass destruction, unless you have floaters.

    It's mostly destruction, beatsticks, and some negation here and there, but nothing particularly impressive. Tend to be somewhat (or exceptionally) situational.

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    Registered User Sanokal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNfiniTe Se7eNz View Post
    Alright, let's talk about R8NK.

    No. 38: Spell negation, and a few attack involving gimmicks. If an opponent doesn't have a beater, realistically the redirect isn't going to come into play, and mass removal (and non destructive removal) is too prevalent for the ATK increase effect.
    Aegaion: Gimmicky Extra Deck destruction with possibility of relatively low ATK and non-targeting destruction.
    GEFAPD: Point removal (limited to faceups).
    No. 95: Technically a R9NK, but is summoned by stacking atop a R8NK Galaxy-Eyes. Double attacker (on monsters). Some milling/deck destruction utility (if you're playing dragons).
    No. 23: At the cost of ATK, it features direct attacking, targeted monster destruction on battle damage, and non-destructive negation.
    No. 87: At 3 materials, its effects are not worth the investment required. I don't think there are any plants with notable flip effects, ATK gain is VERY modest, and preventing activation of a S/T temporarily is meh, especially with all the counter traps.
    No. 62: It's a beater. Does half battle damage.
    Felgrand: Quick effect that can either actively negate or protect monsters.
    No. 107: Mass monster negate (permanent), but only at the start of your BP, and potential multiattack.
    Coach King: Draw 3 and reveal, burn 800 for each monster, but skip BP. Requires 3 material.
    No. 15: SS monster targeted destruction, potential to burn, but really crappy ATK.
    NGEPD: VERY situational ATK gain/multiattack.
    Heliopolis: Costly mass destruction, unless you have floaters.

    It's mostly destruction, beatsticks, and some negation here and there, but nothing particularly impressive. Tend to be somewhat (or exceptionally) situational.
    Don't forget Cipher Dragon.
    Sanokal

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    Registered User King's Avatar
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    Rank 4 is still the best Rank

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    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King View Post
    Rank 4 is still the best Rank
    no effing shit
    I don't have a Problem, I have a Hobby.

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