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Thread: Card Discussion: Evilswarm Exciton Knight

  1. #31
    Registered User TheRamenNoodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
    I feel killing AHL over Stratos wouldn't be an insane move tbh imo idk.
    Exchanging some R4 lock/otk power for much less Dark Law, (which is pretty much the reason why they are even relevant) would probably hurt the deck more than it would help.

    *Attempts to close can of worms*

  2. #32
    Registered User Michelle's Avatar
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    Well you know what, I'm trying my best not to let 2013 Michelle come out and spew HERO hate, so I'll drop it.

  3. #33
    Registered User Dread Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
    Well you know what, I'm trying my best not to let 2013 Michelle come out and spew HERO hate, so I'll drop it.
    don't worry about that, I did that plenty back on Disqus, more then enough to go around
    I don't have a Problem, I have a Hobby.

  4. #34
    Registered User citrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dread Kaiser View Post
    power should be inversely proportional to ease of access
    Except then you'd have a bunch of decks running around that are essentially one-trick ponies, made of just a archetype/category of cards, designed to just produce one threat over and over again. And you'd have even less creativity involved in deck-building, because it just comes down how quickly and efficiently you can produce that one threat, and that's easily done within probably a week in the hands of any competent player. Your meta games would literally be interesting for one week, until some guys figure out the best build, and every match thereafter becomes essentially academic.

    Oh, and you only get the one week if your player base doesn't have prior knowledge of all the cards being released with every new set. If the player base already does know (like how the TCG is three months behind OCG), then everyone will just rush the new deck--with no experimentation necessary--and cruise their way to the top.

    Introducing powerful cards that are generic and not immediately tied (in an obvious way) to some archetype or pre-existing play patter encourages players to be creative and take advantage of that power in interesting and novel way. I'm not saying that Exciton was a good example of that (because it's degenerate and poorly designed), but just think about the impacts that similar cards before have had. Judgment Dragon and Dark Armed Dragon lead to a two-deck format where neither deck really cared about each other. Black Rose Dragon, on the other hand, just gave every player an excuse to run Tuners so that they can have potential access to a field nuke.

  5. #35
    Registered User Michelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    Black Rose Dragon, on the other hand, just gave every player an excuse to run Tuners so that they can have potential access to a field nuke.
    This strikes me with curiosity, since you're suggesting people make their way to add a non-reliable load of enablers(Tuners) to create a Monster with a powerful effect.

    ...And that's exactly why Synchros, despite of all their issues (which were Konami made) are completely more encouraging of creativity in deck building, as you call it, with Xyz, every single card on your deck enters into an homogenizing phase where your entire main-deck becomes a faceless extension towards creating easy-to-use powerful monsters.

    Introducing cards as powerful as the ones we have that are as generic as they are and not tied to some theme or some particular mean nets you a game where you have a bunch of card mechanics with good but fair powers, that suffer in availability in exchange of that power, and then introduce a mechanic that completely circumvents any issues regarding summon easeness, while also having sustantially powerful effects that can solve out any issue in the game you could as well solve with the previous mechanics... Cept the investment you partake into it is ridiculously lower.

    Rituals, Fusions, Synchro and even Pendulums have one dichotomy between their enablers (Ritual Spell and Tributes, Materials, and the fusion enabler, 1 Tuner and non-Tuner, and High and Low scale), Xyz go out of the way to completely decharacterize decks by offering good treats better and cheaper, at the cost of identity, as the ZeXal era progressed, each deck that focused on Xyz, with some exceptions being decks that revolve around different Ranks directly(RUM doesn't count) started to become more and more the same from each other, because you can use just about anything as an Xyz Material so long as it has certain special number embed on it with red orbed stars.

    With the new policy on design regarding the game post-Xyz, Konami has to try out of their ass to justify the usage of the other mechanics, like Shaddoll (Nice concept, but acknowledgably troubling design), Nekroz (Absolute disaster), and have to resort to easy Level modulation(Speedroid) or enabling you materials at a silver plate(PSY-Frame) in order to actually focus your deck around Synchro anymore. Xyz are designed with easy, generic usage in mind, and the moment they started to take prevalence in the game by enabling players to get easy answers to literally anything with a set of 6 R4nks, the game changes for the worst.


    Pendulums are no better precisely, but at least they require you to focus your deck around them in order to make best use of them, granted, Konami went on their way to completely defile card balance by disregarding the corrosive strong points of Pendulum's infinite fodder, but at the end of the day, Pendulums get broken by themselves by negligence, Ritual/Fusion break themselves by jumping sharks, Synchro break themselves for as long as the environment and their flexibility allows them, but literally anything can make, and break Xyz.

  6. #36
    Registered User citrus's Avatar
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    I don't know about you, but I've seen a lot of creative things out of Xyz spam decks. Cards that were never playable before are suddenly very competitive, and players took time to dig up those combos. When was the last time Masked Chameleon was even remotely meta-relevant? I can only think of it as a Synchro/R4 enabler back in Machinas with Gearframe.

    Besides I think all this complaining about R4 decks didn't really happen until Pendulums made spitting out a bunch of materials at once a super easy thing to do. Were people complaining about how Exciton was unfair when Qli was meta? Nekroz? Shaddolls? Heck, I'm not even sure if people were complaining about Exciton all that much when it was $100 and HATs were meta. Back then, a vocal handful of people even said Exciton was bad, for whatever silly reason.

    Exciton is a broken card, but Xyz isn't an inherently broken mechanism. Technically, Pendulums aren't either, but you know that power creep goes. All of these summoning mechanisms are all variations of the original Fusion concept, where you basically invest multiple cards to play a more powerful card. They all affect deck building in their own different ways that don't really have that much to do with the degeneracy of the mechanism itself. Should materials all be self-replacing? Should threats all have Spell Speed 2+ disruption effects? Of course not, but gameplay went that direction for Xyz, and it'll surely go that way for everything else too.

    I wonder if the conversation would be different if Construct had Exciton's effect, or either Trish was a quick, on-summon, mandatory effect. Or maybe if all your Tuners let you special summon or search more Tuners after you use them, and they can special summon themselves so long as you meet some sort of laughably simple condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
    with Xyz, every single card on your deck enters into an homogenizing phase where your entire main-deck becomes a faceless extension towards creating easy-to-use powerful monsters.
    What does that even mean? What's a "faceless extension"? What's the fuss with Xyz spam decks anyway? Drop a Scythe/BTS/Veiler on them, and they're just a bunch of vanillas that can't do anything. The only scary Xyz spam decks are the ones that have real main deck threats, and I haven't seen one of those yet.

    BTW, Exciton can't kill you. Its card text literally says so, and it only has 1900 ATK. If you're somehow ground down to where you can't deal with a 1900 ATK beater, and you couldn't already win with the field you had before Exciton blew it up, I'm not sure how you were going to win that game anyway. Likewise, if you have absolutely no idea what you're doing, or you're seven cards behind your opponent, Exciton probably isn't going to save you either. A lot of this last year saw people resolve Exciton and lose anyway.

    In any case, I'm not saying all of this because I necessarily believe in any of it. These are just arguments out there, and the truths of the situation change as the situation changes. Saying a bunch of hardline things like "Xyz broke the game," "Exciton OP," etc. is pretty dangerous. It leads to close-mindedness, and it doesn't allow us to look at this game and the cards from every angle. We don't get any better at playing, and we just sit there and whine all day about how some new broken card is ruining our day. That's pathetic.
    Last edited by citrus; 26th December 2015 at 09:18 PM.

  7. #37
    Registered User Sanokal's Avatar
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    Is it a crime to agree with and see points in both sides of this argument? Popcorn, Dread?
    Sanokal

  8. #38
    Registered User Michelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    I don't know about you, but I've seen a lot of creative things out of Xyz spam decks. Cards that were never playable before are suddenly very competitive, and players took time to dig up those combos. When was the last time Masked Chameleon was even remotely meta-relevant? I can only think of it as a Synchro/R4 enabler back in Machinas with Gearframe.
    Cards that were never playable before, cept with Xyz that translates to any card with Level 4 becomes suddenly a good card, not for it's own merits, but for being one of a plethora of monsters that can be used to access anything in the Rank 4 Toolbox.

    Masked Chameleon, and Kagetokage for that matter only became usable the moment they were ridiculously easy to recur to with... You guessed it, a generic R4nk, that less that searching out Reptile Monsters is headed towards generating more and more R4nk fodder.

    People don't look at Main-deck cards anymore for their blanket effects, they look for them because they're enablers, anything else is just icing on the cake.
    Besides I think all this complaining about R4 decks didn't really happen until Pendulums made spitting out a bunch of materials at once a super easy thing to do. Were people complaining about how Exciton was unfair when Qli was meta? Nekroz? Shaddolls? Heck, I'm not even sure if people were complaining about Exciton all that much when it was $100 and HATs were meta. Back then, a vocal handful of people even said Exciton was bad, for whatever silly reason.
    People already said Exciton was unfair during it's release, just that people held it to themselves because the game has become so corrosive to the point a card that can flexibly, and very sneakily destroy all bulk on the field, going back to my previous post, completely shifting the momentum in your favor because you burned out your advantage to use it's effect, rather than it being a field leveler, it becomes an option many have to bear in mind at all times because there's no reason not to Main it.

    It was seldomly used because effect negation, another widespread problem that is very live on decks terribly designed was at access as well, every single card that has an impact in the game does so because it's completely gamebreaking in a vacuum, but it's only not bending the game in half because that's already the norm, you can't break what is already torn down to pieces, YGO is dust.
    Exciton is a broken card, but Xyz isn't an inherently broken mechanism. Technically, Pendulums aren't either, but you know that power creep goes. All of these summoning mechanisms are all variations of the original Fusion concept, where you basically invest multiple cards to play a more powerful card. They all affect deck building in their own different ways that don't really have that much to do with the degeneracy of the mechanism itself. Should materials all be self-replacing? Should threats all have Spell Speed 2+ disruption effects? Of course not, but gameplay went that direction for Xyz, and it'll surely go that way for everything else too.
    So you're acknowledging the game took a turn for the worse and made the requirements for usage from one deck to the other to be secured overextending and titanic card advantage?

    Tell me how is that not a problem in itself.
    I wonder if the conversation would be different if Construct had Exciton's effect, or either Trish was a quick, on-summon, mandatory effect. Or maybe if all your Tuners let you special summon or search more Tuners after you use them, and they can special summon themselves so long as you meet some sort of laughably simple condition.
    Synchro summoning in practice is a method with a simple condition, but you have one card and the other that fulfill that role, Construct's Power is relative to the cards that summon it, and the materials that are used, Shaddoll Fusion, and the no shortage of flexible Doll materials used create over the top scenerios on their own, but there's the catch, every single member of the equation is at fault, they're pretty underwhelming in a vacuum (Cept Fusion for obvious reasons). Trish has a very powerful effect, the cost is very solid, but it's very negligible in a format where Synchro spam is the norm, and pretty underwhelming since it's not even reliable anymore, a single negation(Extremely rampant), and the perpetual presence of easier means towards removal (4 + 4 = Problem Solved) put the effect of Trish to shame since the investment is only negligible when you can ensure it goes off, if it does, good, you turned the tide of the game in your favor, if it doesn't, tough shit, you just lost 3 Monsters for a measly 2700 beater.

    See the problem here, Trish is in no way a balanced card, it's range of power is proportionally superior to the requirements to summon it, since it can completely remove 3 cards out of the equation, while the cards used to summon it, provided the right conditions, can be recurred back. It was an ominous day the moment this card went to meager use due to several easier cards that accomplish similar means, if not as powerful, are ridiculously easier to recur to, without any self investment whatsoever.
    What does that even mean? What's a "faceless extension"? What's the fuss with Xyz spam decks anyway? Drop a Scythe/BTS/Veiler on them, and they're just a bunch of vanillas that can't do anything. The only scary Xyz spam decks are the ones that have real main deck threats, and I haven't seen one of those yet.
    What, you're telling me I need to flock my entire deck with means to deal with them just because they're entitled to have their ridiculous effects? at an easier access? as if my defensive means are as reliable as them are recurring to their means of mass disruption.

    No, Counters do not justify anything when accessibility is a joke for them, and a hassle for me.

    And what I mean as ''faceless extension'' is that every single maindeck card volunteers itself to literally only two things, be Level 4, and be capable of supplying more Level 4's through their own easy access or the ability to tutor more and so on. Every deck focused around Fusion/Ritual/Synchro/Pendulum has a role, a means towards an end, through one enabler and the requirement fulfiller, Xyz materials can be both the enabler, and the requirement, there's no other way to it, homogenization at its finest, for the worse.

    Ya dig?
    BTW, Exciton can't kill you. Its card text literally says so, and it only has 1900 ATK. If you're somehow ground down to where you can't deal with a 1900 ATK beater, and you couldn't already win with the field you had before Exciton blew it up, I'm not sure how you were going to win that game anyway. Likewise, if you have absolutely no idea what you're doing, or you're seven cards behind your opponent, Exciton probably isn't going to save you either. A lot of this last year saw people resolve Exciton and lose anyway.
    Oh there you are again, applauding ridiculous card design for the sake of it being the norm, this becomes less about Exciton being an issue in itself (it is) and more about the game being an utter catastrophe (it grudgingly is) to the point cards like these, with their measly restrictions being the only reason it's not destroying the metagame (because card design takes further steps in stupidity).

    People who play YGO anymore do so because:
    1 - They either blindly cling on to the game that has brutally defiled their game with the adrenaline rush, they either dislike it, but cope with that for reasonings true to only themselves(clinging to the game, they don't know any better, etc)
    2 - Those who absolutely enjoy dancing around the ashes of a plastered game that got beaten to the ground so brutally, and look down upon those who are non-conformists with the system because there's nothing any of them can do about it, because Konami is disconnected to the playerbase entirely.
    3 - People who only stay for the game because the game has gone way too far, and is disconnected from common decency, and are eager to see when will it all crumble on its cements.

    At least that's how I see it, I don't mean to be judgmental, but that's the entire impression I get from the playerbase anymore.
    In any case, I'm not saying all of this because I necessarily believe in any of it. These are just arguments out there, and the truths of the situation change as the situation changes. Saying a bunch of hardline things like "Xyz broke the game," "Exciton OP," etc. is pretty dangerous. It leads to close-mindedness, and it doesn't allow us to look at this game and the cards from every angle. We don't get any better at playing, and we just sit there and whine all day about how some new broken card is ruining our day. That's pathetic.
    Xyz summon, and all the intricacies behind it brainwashed people into believing you should be entitled to have all options at your entire disposal, without any regard for self growth, or escalating investment, there's no road in YGO, only players self absorbedly spewing out cards after cards on each other, shifting the momentum hilariously, this has always been a core aspect with the game since it never had any regard for their cards whatsoever. However the problem went too far when Konami started to babyfeeding people into continuous spewing of card one after another, and them rewarding them from playing like an ape, it was a problem during the Synchro era, but that was only on some instances, but it grew worse and worse with every passing generation.

    There are no ways into playing ygo other than mercilessly beating your opponent to the ground(Which almost literally EVERY single deck can do) or completely preventing your opponent from doing anything at all(Several decks can do this, and not even through their own merits), worse being there are several decks that can do both things efficiently, and almost simultaneously.

    Do you consider such gamestate to be healthy in any way? what's so closeminded about dissecting the game's most visible issues and suggesting what and why is it wrong? Some people have a very vocal discontent towards the game, and have the nerve to call those people close-minded when you try to advocate in favor of the game because you can do nothing about it?


    That's perfectly okay.


    Michelle out.
    Last edited by Michelle; 26th December 2015 at 10:50 PM.

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