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Thread: Card Discussion: Raigeki

  1. #21
    Registered User Sanokal's Avatar
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    Mirror Force was a Trap though. Ring of Destruction is the real kicker that should raise eyebrows.
    Sanokal

  2. #22
    Registered User Volteccer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanokal View Post
    Mirror Force was a Trap though. Ring of Destruction is the real kicker that should raise eyebrows.
    Well, Kaiba probably gave it a pass because it was a card he used.

  3. #23
    Registered User Aromaiden's Avatar
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    Sorry it took so long to respond; I've been really busy lately. ;p
    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    Consider this: It's g1 in your round, and you're playing a deck that prefers to go second. You won the dice roll, and you force your opponent to go first. Your opponent is also playing a deck that prefers to go second. In this case, the opponent does not invest too many resources immediately, and establish a minor field with one monster and two set back-row (perhaps a King of the Feral Imps, a set Solemn Warning, and a set Time-Space Trap Hole).
    As you said, this is definitely an alarmingly specific situation; almost too specific. Isolating this card to such specific situations that purposely work against the card's power and usage is basically cherry picking.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    You draw for your turn and, lo, your sixth card in hand is Raigeki, not a combo piece.
    It may not be a "combo piece" but it is most definitely a "power" card; that would effectively allow you to clear the majority of your opponent's field presence for nothing. You have little reason (outside of those specific scenarios) not to want to see Raigeki unless your playing a Deck similar to a Brilliant Fusion variant. In that case, it's more understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    it's the exactly problem that current Pendulum decks face, and it's also why very few competitive decks choose to main Raigeki.
    This is downright untrue. A large percentage if not the majority of TCG decks this format main Raigeki. Where did you get this information from?

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    Also consider this: In the same round, you win g1. With knowledge of what you're both playing, your opponent chooses for you to go first g2, and now comes time to side. Would you keep Raigeki in your deck?
    You're not even guaranteed to draw into Raigeki and even if you do so, it will provide you with an innate advantage and out to your opponent's monsters. Arguably the only downside to maining it would be you drawing it in your opening hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    There is absolutely no reason for you to want to draw Raigeki in your opening hand
    If your playing a consistent deck than you have little reason to not want to see Raigeki. If you're going first than I can see it being relatively useless (at least at that moment). Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize how similar the argument's for this card are to that of snatch steal (albeit it's not as bad)

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    Your opponent will not have a threatening field, so you cannot use it, and because it's not a trap card, you cannot set it, expecting to stop your opponent's play. You may want to keep it in so that you can perhaps clear his field turn 3, so that you can have an opening to push. That's reasonable, but if your opponent successfully creates a threatening field that Raigeki would be ideal for clearing, you probably wouldn't survive to turn 3 with sufficient resources to take advantage of the opening anyway.
    Highlighting small weaknesses to a card through specific examples and situations doesn't make said card overall less powerful or sacky. It may put it into a somewhat different perspective but that's about it

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    Again, specific example, but it occurs frequently enough that of the players using Raigeki, many choose to side it out.
    I made a similar statement to this originally, but mine was based more on personal experience. I would actually like a form of citation or some sort of evidence or reasoning behind how you know this. From my perspective that seems unreasonable tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    The issue with Raigeki as a competitive card is that it's not reactive enough to deal with threats as they happen.
    Raigeki is played in the majority of this format's Decks and is basically considered a staple; it is most definitely a solid "competitive" card. It'll only get better as we move towards BOSH.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    In our present state where threats are so large that allowing them to manifest typically leads to defeat
    This very same logic can be applied to Raigeki.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    Raigeki cannot be expected to solve any real problems when they're still worth solving.
    What. If you have solely Raigeki, or if your opponent managed to OTK you (which consistently happens) then sure. On the other hand, Raigeki in itself is basically an immediate and costless answer to the majority if not all of your opponent's field presence. It can definitely help solve a couple of real problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    "For this reason, some players choose to include Raigeki in their side decks, to address "annoying" monsters, like Majesty's Fiend, Vanity's Fiend, Denko Sekka, etc."
    Very few successful competitive decks ever side Raigeki; most either run it or they don't.
    Last edited by Aromaiden; 24th December 2015 at 09:41 AM.
    Current Favorite Decks: Ritual Beast, Blue-Eyes, Burgesstoma, Phantom Knights, D/D/D, and Raidraptor.

  4. #24
    Registered User Sanokal's Avatar
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    I'm gonna agree with Aromaiden on this one.
    Sanokal

  5. #25
    Registered User citrus's Avatar
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    Take a look through here: http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_...ormat=Advanced

    You'll find that a good majority of all currently competitively successful decks choose not to main or side Raigeki. As for how I know players that main Raigeki choose to side it out, all I did was watch their deck profiles and/or talk to them. The simple fact of the matter is this: If they win g1 and they know their opponents will make them go first, they will side out Raigeki g2 to reduce the chance that they'll have a dead card in their opening hands. If they believe their opponents will go first and establish monster floodgates, they'll keep/side Raigeki in. Nobody sides Raigeki now because monster floodgates aren't popular sides right now--there's no reason to prepare for them.

    I never contested that Raigeki wasn't a ridiculously powerful card, but I'm saying that given the specific circumstances of our metagame right now, Raigeki is not reliably useful, so it's not an obvious must-run card. Even decks like Kozmos have shed Raigeki, despite the deck thriving against open fields, specifically because of the reasons I stated previously.

    I won't counter your specific arguments, because you don't seem to base your claims on actual competitive results. In fact, I'd love to see where your evidence came from for your sweeping claims. ("Very few successful competitive decks ever side Raigeki; most either run it or they don't." Really? What about all the decks earlier this year, when Majesty's Vanity's were in every BA side, and not killing them meant losing?) I will say that Raigeki will almost certainly be worse post-BOSH, where the prevalence of counter traps means decks need more ways to either make plays happen or protect the plays they already have. Raigeki doesn't make plays happen: Summoning your monsters into a Solemn Notice right after you cleared their field with Raigeki doesn't do anything for you. What's Raigeki going to do for you when you're staring down Infinity and Rafflesia, backed by 3 back row?

    In any case, it doesn't seem to me that you've looked at Raigeki's place in today's competitive landscape, and it doesn't seem like you're willing to look much further than what you've already seen. There's no point in me continuing to argue against you.

    P.S.: You can't even compare Snatch Steal to Raigeki. Raigeki only removes threats. Snatch Steal removes a threat AND simultaneously creates one. I Raigeki your Valkyrus? Okay, it's off the field. I Snatch your Valkyrus? Now I get to hit you with 2900 and draw a card. The swing in momentum that Snatch Steal alone is capable of is miles ahead of what Raigeki can do on its own.
    Last edited by citrus; 24th December 2015 at 02:59 PM.

  6. #26
    Registered User Aromaiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    In any case, it doesn't seem to me that you've looked at Raigeki's place in today's competitive landscape, and it doesn't seem like you're willing to look much further than what you've already seen. There's no point in me continuing to argue against you.
    Cool bruh. I was just having a reasonable discussion. No reason to continue if you're just going to behave this way. smh.

    Quote Originally Posted by citrus View Post
    The swing in momentum that Snatch Steal alone is capable of is miles ahead of what Raigeki can do on its own.
    Clearly stated that by the way.
    Last edited by Aromaiden; 24th December 2015 at 03:05 PM.
    Current Favorite Decks: Ritual Beast, Blue-Eyes, Burgesstoma, Phantom Knights, D/D/D, and Raidraptor.

  7. #27
    Registered User Dyson Sphere's Avatar
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    not really that OP i could see it going to 2
    you think you can beat me, I'm a giant frickin satellite bigger than the sun, your move

  8. #28
    Registered User Sanokal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyson Sphere View Post
    not really that OP i could see it going to 2
    Sometimes I don't know whether you're a troll or an idiot.
    Sanokal

  9. #29
    Registered User Volteccer's Avatar
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    One-sided boardwipe spells are never bad. Pendulum/indestructible or no, it still packs quite the punch.

  10. #30
    Registered User Dyson Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanokal View Post
    Sometimes I don't know whether you're a troll or an idiot.
    the former
    you think you can beat me, I'm a giant frickin satellite bigger than the sun, your move

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